Go Back   Defense Technology & Military Forum > Global Defense & Military > Air Force & Aviation
Forgot Password? Join Us! Its's free!

Defense News
Land, Air & Naval Forces






Military Photos
Latest Military Pictures

ExPB14_JAS-39_Gripen.jpg

ExPB14_Mirage2000.jpg

6_EXPB14_20140729_088_3_RSAF_F16s.jpg

5_EXPB14_20140729_143_3_RSAF_F-15SGs.jpg
Defense Reports
Aerospace & Defence







Recent Photos - DefenceTalk Military Gallery





Gaza Air Campaign

This is a discussion on Gaza Air Campaign within the Air Force & Aviation forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; Just a friendly reminder not to get too deep into the politics of this situation, folks... I understand it's difficult ...


Closed Thread
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread
Old November 18th, 2012   #16
Super Moderator
Lieutenant General
No Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 2,501
Threads:
Just a friendly reminder not to get too deep into the politics of this situation, folks... I understand it's difficult to discuss without politics, and you're welcome to do so in private, but for the purposes of this thread let's stick to military discussion. I think we can all agree the situation has a myriad of different political factors to be considered, and a long history in which both sides have been active participants, so let's leave it there.
Bonza is offline  
Old November 18th, 2012   #17
Defense Enthusiast
Corporal
surpreme's Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Newport News VA
Posts: 196
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by STURM View Post
Irrespective of how 'advanced' the ATGMs are, it will certainly not be a game changer and Hamas will not be able to stop the Israeli's.The Israeli's have taken into account that Hamas may have received new 'toy's and have planned accordingly.
Don't be surprise if Hamas or as I said before foreign skilled fighters do some damage. How in the hell did Hamas received all them rockets anyway? Even if they build the rockets themselves which is highly unlikely they will have to have the equipment to make them. I'm surprise at how many rockets they got now in just three years and after the air campaign in 2008 they must got some surprises that we don't know about. Some foreign intelligence service could be helping them?
________________
there can only be one
surpreme is offline  
Old November 18th, 2012   #18
Defense Enthusiast
Lieutenant
SpudmanWP's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: United Socialist Cities of California
Posts: 585
Threads:
Many of them came across the border from Egypt via smuggling tunnels.

SpudmanWP is offline  
Old November 18th, 2012   #19
Defense Professional / Analyst
General
Abraham Gubler's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,162
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by STURM View Post
Abe, you make it sound like it is solely due to the Arabs that there is no current peace process in place.
Well it is. The Camp David two-state solution was rejected by Arafat, even all the Arab states recognised this as a betrayal of the peace process. Though in all fairness the Palestinian people had been feed so much propaganda they probably wouldnít have accepted it and if it went ahead Hamas would now be in control over all Palestinian lands. The Oslo Accords were then ruined by Arafatís launching of the suicide bombing campaign in 2001. A campaign that was only stopped by the IDF and the Separation Barrier. Itís the Arabs launching attacks on Israel that is the problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by STURM View Post
In the 1970's the Palestinians did try to make peace but this was a period when Israel refused to negotiate at all as it was hoping that the Palestinian problem would just go way but it didn't.
Thatís totally false. In the 1970s the PLO launched attack after attack on Israel and on Jordan and Lebanon in response to peace efforts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by STURM View Post
The peace process is currently dead as a door nail not because the Arabs have ambitions to destroy Israel but because Israel continues to build settlements on land that it doesn't own and illegally occupies and due to the fact that Hamas and Fatah can't seem to agree on most things. Israel has to choose whether it wants land or whether it wants peace it can't have both - and the Palestinians need to get their house in order.
Thatís not true in the slightest. The settlements are no obstacle to peace and have not been so in the 70s, 80s and 90s and certainly arenít now. The settlements are Israelís way of pushing the Arabs to peace. Itís the only leverage they have to motivate the Arabs to settle their desire to give up what they donít have (1948 borders of Israel) and settle on what they can have (Gaza and West Bank).

Israel will dismantle most of the settlements in return for peace. Some territory from the West Bank they will insist on keeping but the Arabs are aware of these and understand it. One canít expect them to give up Latrun and Ariel the roads to Jerusalem.

The actual stumbling block is Old city of Jerusalem and east Jerusalem as to who has territorial control. That and the Arab street accepting a peace deal. Though after the last 10 years most reports indicate that the West Bank population is far more accepting of the idea of peace than they were before.

Quote:
Originally Posted by STURM View Post
What Arab states today want to 'destroy' Israel - it's not 1948 or 1967 anymore.
Well even Egypt does. While all of them have given up the direct assault option most of the Arab states and certainly the Palestinians and the non Arab Iranians have significant plans to destroy Israel. All of their state propaganda is vicilously anti Jewish and anti Israeli. The Egyptian Army does nothing but plan to fight Israel, Syrian army used to until more immediate worries. Hezbollah, Hamas are all configured to destroy Israel. The Palestinian street is still obsessed with destruction of Israel and think that they can do it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by STURM View Post
The Arab states are more concerned about regime survival, keeping their citizen's in check and safeguarding their wealth. Arab states like Saudi and Jordan are more concerned and insecure about other Arab states than they are with Israel - and it has been this way for a long time.
Sure and these states have never been part of major push to destroy Israel. Itís the nationalist and now Islamic regimes that have been out to destroy the Israelis. The only thing that has changed is the balance of power making a direct conventional military option almost unthinkable. Otherwise its still game on.
Abraham Gubler is offline  
Old November 18th, 2012   #20
Defense Professional / Analyst
General
Abraham Gubler's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,162
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonza View Post
Just a friendly reminder not to get too deep into the politics of this situation, folks... I understand it's difficult to discuss without politics, and you're welcome to do so in private, but for the purposes of this thread let's stick to military discussion. I think we can all agree the situation has a myriad of different political factors to be considered, and a long history in which both sides have been active participants, so let's leave it there.
Uhhh... Ahh my last post, sorry about that...
Abraham Gubler is offline  
Old November 18th, 2012   #21
Defense Enthusiast
Corporal
surpreme's Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Newport News VA
Posts: 196
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abraham Gubler View Post
Well it is. The Camp David two-state solution was rejected by Arafat, even all the Arab states recognised this as a betrayal of the peace process. Though in all fairness the Palestinian people had been feed so much propaganda they probably wouldnít have accepted it and if it went ahead Hamas would now be in control over all Palestinian lands. The Oslo Accords were then ruined by Arafatís launching of the suicide bombing campaign in 2001. A campaign that was only stopped by the IDF and the Separation Barrier. Itís the Arabs launching attacks on Israel that is the problem.



Thatís totally false. In the 1970s the PLO launched attack after attack on Israel and on Jordan and Lebanon in response to peace efforts.



Thatís not true in the slightest. The settlements are no obstacle to peace and have not been so in the 70s, 80s and 90s and certainly arenít now. The settlements are Israelís way of pushing the Arabs to peace. Itís the only leverage they have to motivate the Arabs to settle their desire to give up what they donít have (1948 borders of Israel) and settle on what they can have (Gaza and West Bank).

Israel will dismantle most of the settlements in return for peace. Some territory from the West Bank they will insist on keeping but the Arabs are aware of these and understand it. One canít expect them to give up Latrun and Ariel the roads to Jerusalem.

The actual stumbling block is Old city of Jerusalem and east Jerusalem as to who has territorial control. That and the Arab street accepting a peace deal. Though after the last 10 years most reports indicate that the West Bank population is far more accepting of the idea of peace than they were before.



Well even Egypt does. While all of them have given up the direct assault option most of the Arab states and certainly the Palestinians and the non Arab Iranians have significant plans to destroy Israel. All of their state propaganda is vicilously anti Jewish and anti Israeli. The Egyptian Army does nothing but plan to fight Israel, Syrian army used to until more immediate worries. Hezbollah, Hamas are all configured to destroy Israel. The Palestinian street is still obsessed with destruction of Israel and think that they can do it.



Sure and these states have never been part of major push to destroy Israel. Itís the nationalist and now Islamic regimes that have been out to destroy the Israelis. The only thing that has changed is the balance of power making a direct conventional military option almost unthinkable. Otherwise its still game on.
I do agreed with some of the thing you said. Yes the Egyptian are planning for an get back at the Israelis after they beat them in 1967 & 1973 any Army that got defeated like that would want to bounce back look at the defeats the US Army took in WW II they bounce back and defeated Japan. The Arab just want to be treated equality on the peace table. I would like know what Palestine resistance started hitting civilian anyway? Is there any Palestine armed group that don't target civilian but target the IDF. If you can't target the IDF than you don't need to start a armed group your mission is to fight a Army not civilians. To have a successful fight against any military you must train for years. Back to the discussion Hamas has no air defense whatsoever. They should have just sit back and stockpile there equipment and train and study the IDF and fight them when they are better prepared.
________________
there can only be one
surpreme is offline  
Old November 18th, 2012   #22
Senior Member
Brigadier General
No Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,818
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abraham Gubler View Post
That’s totally false. In the 1970s the PLO launched attack after attack on Israel and on Jordan and Lebanon in response to peace efforts.
No its not false at all... During this period Israel was hoping that the problem would just go away, that the Palestinians would be absorbed by Syria, the Lebanon and by Jordan, they refused to negotiate unless it was on their terms and their terms only. Israel only seriously started to negotiate much later when it knew that the problem wouldn't just go way and when it came under intense international pressure to do so. In short, the situation was way different then it is now. In 2002, Saudi - on behalf of the Arab world - presented Israel with a peace plan that would have led to full recognition of Israel and one that would leave in place room for negotiations on Jerusalem and some other issues to be held at a much later date, Israel refused - why?
There is a reason Arafat rejected Oslo and it was not due to the fact that his ultimate aim was the complete destruction of Israel. Whilst negotiations over Oslo were going on Israel was still building settlements, had plans to build more and made a number of promises that were highly ambigious, why?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abraham Gubler View Post
That’s not true in the slightest. The settlements are no obstacle to peace and have not been so in the 70s, 80s and 90s and certainly aren’t now. The settlements are Israel’s way of pushing the Arabs to peace. It’s the only leverage they have to motivate the Arabs to settle their desire to give up what they don’t have (1948 borders of Israel) and settle on what they can have (Gaza and West Bank).
Somehow, the Arabs who have been forced to vacate their land and who have had their homes demolished to make room for new settlements might not agree with you. And you're saying it's all about leverage? The issue is hugely political in Israel and whichever PM is in power has to tread very carefully because there is a lot of internal support for these settlements. If what you're saying is true - if a peace deal was finalised, then Israel would readily give up all the settlements built on land that has been promised to the Palestinians? And I'm not reffering to places like Jerusalem, Latrun or the roads to Jerusalem, I'm refering to land allocated for a future Palestinian state that is shrinking due to the building of settlements that is meant for everyone except the people who actually currently live there...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abraham Gubler View Post
Well even Egypt does. While all of them have given up the direct assault option most of the Arab states and certainly the Palestinians and the non Arab Iranians have significant plans to destroy Israel. All of their state propaganda is vicilously anti Jewish and anti Israeli. The Egyptian Army does nothing but plan to fight Israel, Syrian army used to until more immediate worries. Hezbollah, Hamas are all configured to destroy Israel. The Palestinian street is still obsessed with destruction of Israel and think that they can do it.
That's a very pro-Israeli line which I have no problem with except that it's not true at all - I'm neither pro-Arab/Palestinian or pro-Israeli BTW but I firmly believe that justice has to be served to everyone, that both sides are equally to blame and that no one has a monopoly on truth or on suffeting. Egypt for the past few decades has been focusing on regime survival and ensuring that financial aid from the U.S. is not disrupted - 'attacking Israel' is the last thing on its mind. And off course the Egyptian military will have contigency plans to fight Israel, it's part of their job to have such plans in place. Same goes with Syria, under Assad the elder, priority was regime survival, maintaining the status quo in Lebanon [which is why Israel was more than happy when Syria intervened on the side of the Christians against the PLO and other groups] and regaining the Golan. As to groups like Hamas, the reason they do not recognise the state of Israel is because by doing so it gives legitimacy to Israel's continued illegal occupation of land it does not own and even if they do recognise Israel, which Israel should they recognise, one with pre or post 1967 borders and what about Jerusalem which the Israeli's refuse to discuss? The Israeli's however would like us to believe the totally false self-serving narrative that the only reason groups like Hamas [which was at one time courted by Israel as an alternative to the corrupt Fatah] do not officially recognise Israel is because they want to 'destroy' the state of Israel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonza View Post
Just a friendly reminder not to get too deep into the politics of this situation, folks... I understand it's difficult to discuss without politics, and you're welcome to do so in private, but for the purposes of this thread let's stick to military discussion. I think we can all agree the situation has a myriad of different political factors to be considered, and a long history in which both sides have been active participants, so let's leave it there.
My apologies, I won't say anything more.

Last edited by STURM; November 18th, 2012 at 02:16 PM.
STURM is offline  
Old November 18th, 2012   #23
Grumpy Old Man
General
gf0012-aust's Avatar
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Australia
Posts: 14,626
Threads:
When a Mod states that the thread needs to take a different direction its not a suggestion

Its not an opportunity to enforce a right of reply and ignore that direction

Thread Closed
________________
A corollary of Finagle's Law, similar to Occam's Razor, says:

"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity"
http://au.linkedin.com/pub/gary-fairlie/1/28a/2a2
http://cofda.wordpress.com/
gf0012-aust is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:29 AM.