TankovayaVoyska
New Member
Hi all and good wishes! TankovayaVoyska here, with a question regarding the Buk-M1 air defense complex.
I wasn't sure if this was the appropriate place to ask regarding air defense systems. If it's not, please redirect me as necessary. As far as I know, surface-to-air missiles were under the jurisdiction of ground forces, but that probably varies from army to army. Either way, I suppose its role in knocking out air targets and denying hostile aviation air superiority makes it a question for the air force and aviation.
Onto business. If you all have been keeping up with the news, then you'll notice that it has become very notorious for the downing of the Malaysian Airlines flight MH17.
Let me get this out of the way here : I am not interested in discussing the political backdrop and etc regarding the flight or the conflict in Ukraine. I am not here to assign blame on who did what in Eastern Ukraine, so I appreciate it if you all completely refrain from discussing that part of the topic. I am here to ask questions in order to understand the capabilities and operations of aforementioned system. As a tank enthusiast, I understand that air defense is a very crucial part of protecting all ground forces, be it tanks or infantry. So in my readings of tank actions (the Arab-Israeli Wars especially comes to mind in that regard), it became clear to me that the understanding and proper employment of adequate air defenses, be it ground or air-based, is a very important factor in the success of any ground operation.
What few things I know of the missile system are regarding its battalion level organization, service ceiling and maximum range. From what I've gathered from NII Priborostroyenya and wikipedia (I am aware that wikipedia counts for little in the way of information, so please correct me as I go) , a typical battalion of Buk-M1s will consist of the battalion CP, the (TAR) target acquisition radar, 6 TELARs (transporter-erector-launcher-radar) and 3 TELs (transporter-erector-launcher). I am assuming here that the battalion is organized into three distinct batteries, each with 3 TELARs and 1 TEL.
I know that the battalion CP and TAR help to acquire targets at 85km. The CP relays that info to the individual batteries, which can then proceed to engage the target (which I understood to be something in the following groups - mid-altid aicraft, helicopters, mortars, and tactical ballistic missiles) at a maximum range of 30km with a ceiling of 22km.
I know that only TELARs can fire independently of data from battalion CP and TAR, but TELs need to be uplinked to the TELARs to fire. TELs can act both as a launching unit, similar to the 2K12 Kub, and as a reloading vehicle with its own crane.
Understand that again, my understanding of the Buk-M1 comprises of this much, and I hope to be corrected in my understanding of the system as part of a much wider network of air defenses that comprise other systems.
Now here is what I want to know :
1) Fire control protocol. This is probably more a question of army organization and order of battle than a technical question or aspect of the complex itself, but I am curious to know anyway. Does the battalion commander have the independence from say, brigade command, to identify and destroy targets slated within the spectrum it was designed to defend? This leads to my next question.
2) What is the process? From what I can assume, if the battalion CP has the green light to open fire, then obviously all it has to do is relay CP information to battery commanders, which in turn will fire. Is this correct? Please do not refrain from going into detail to explain this further.
3) Does the battalion CP have the ability, with its own TAR, to discriminate targets? The Buk-M1 is slated to target mid-altid aircraft, rotary wing aircraft (aka helos), tactical ballistic missiles (something I am quite surprised to know), UAVs, and mortar rounds. I am assuming that to be able to effectively engage this, would this also by logical deduction mean that a battalion level TAR would have the ability to distinguish the signature of what it is firing at, or are the targets just blips to be smashed to oblivion without care?
4) And in relation to that, can the TAR distinguish the radar profiles of civilian aircraft vs military aircraft? Because these things are computerized, I also assume that there would be logs to record all fire control activity, no? And lastly, can the TAR also determine target altitude and speed, aside from the obvious things like general direction, range and heading? I would assume yes, but like I said, I am not sure.
5) Since the objective of the TAR is to acquire targets, I am assuming the fire control radar of the TELAR will not be so complex beyond its ability to find targets in its sector and illuminate it. Once the TAR data has been relayed to TELAR and TEL batteries, what happens? Aside from waiting for the target to come into range, that is? Can the TELAR's fire control system tell the difference in the identity of the target independently of the TAR? ie, would the battery commander know what it would be firing at if battalion CP did not tell them?
Thank you for taking the time to read. Please do not refrain from pointing out anything that I said or understood wrongly. I am here to learn and accept that my failings as a human can sometimes give me the wrong impression or understanding of what I read. I hope to receive a quick response from anyone qualified or knowledgeable enough to respond.
Have a nice day.
I wasn't sure if this was the appropriate place to ask regarding air defense systems. If it's not, please redirect me as necessary. As far as I know, surface-to-air missiles were under the jurisdiction of ground forces, but that probably varies from army to army. Either way, I suppose its role in knocking out air targets and denying hostile aviation air superiority makes it a question for the air force and aviation.
Onto business. If you all have been keeping up with the news, then you'll notice that it has become very notorious for the downing of the Malaysian Airlines flight MH17.
Let me get this out of the way here : I am not interested in discussing the political backdrop and etc regarding the flight or the conflict in Ukraine. I am not here to assign blame on who did what in Eastern Ukraine, so I appreciate it if you all completely refrain from discussing that part of the topic. I am here to ask questions in order to understand the capabilities and operations of aforementioned system. As a tank enthusiast, I understand that air defense is a very crucial part of protecting all ground forces, be it tanks or infantry. So in my readings of tank actions (the Arab-Israeli Wars especially comes to mind in that regard), it became clear to me that the understanding and proper employment of adequate air defenses, be it ground or air-based, is a very important factor in the success of any ground operation.
What few things I know of the missile system are regarding its battalion level organization, service ceiling and maximum range. From what I've gathered from NII Priborostroyenya and wikipedia (I am aware that wikipedia counts for little in the way of information, so please correct me as I go) , a typical battalion of Buk-M1s will consist of the battalion CP, the (TAR) target acquisition radar, 6 TELARs (transporter-erector-launcher-radar) and 3 TELs (transporter-erector-launcher). I am assuming here that the battalion is organized into three distinct batteries, each with 3 TELARs and 1 TEL.
I know that the battalion CP and TAR help to acquire targets at 85km. The CP relays that info to the individual batteries, which can then proceed to engage the target (which I understood to be something in the following groups - mid-altid aicraft, helicopters, mortars, and tactical ballistic missiles) at a maximum range of 30km with a ceiling of 22km.
I know that only TELARs can fire independently of data from battalion CP and TAR, but TELs need to be uplinked to the TELARs to fire. TELs can act both as a launching unit, similar to the 2K12 Kub, and as a reloading vehicle with its own crane.
Understand that again, my understanding of the Buk-M1 comprises of this much, and I hope to be corrected in my understanding of the system as part of a much wider network of air defenses that comprise other systems.
Now here is what I want to know :
1) Fire control protocol. This is probably more a question of army organization and order of battle than a technical question or aspect of the complex itself, but I am curious to know anyway. Does the battalion commander have the independence from say, brigade command, to identify and destroy targets slated within the spectrum it was designed to defend? This leads to my next question.
2) What is the process? From what I can assume, if the battalion CP has the green light to open fire, then obviously all it has to do is relay CP information to battery commanders, which in turn will fire. Is this correct? Please do not refrain from going into detail to explain this further.
3) Does the battalion CP have the ability, with its own TAR, to discriminate targets? The Buk-M1 is slated to target mid-altid aircraft, rotary wing aircraft (aka helos), tactical ballistic missiles (something I am quite surprised to know), UAVs, and mortar rounds. I am assuming that to be able to effectively engage this, would this also by logical deduction mean that a battalion level TAR would have the ability to distinguish the signature of what it is firing at, or are the targets just blips to be smashed to oblivion without care?
4) And in relation to that, can the TAR distinguish the radar profiles of civilian aircraft vs military aircraft? Because these things are computerized, I also assume that there would be logs to record all fire control activity, no? And lastly, can the TAR also determine target altitude and speed, aside from the obvious things like general direction, range and heading? I would assume yes, but like I said, I am not sure.
5) Since the objective of the TAR is to acquire targets, I am assuming the fire control radar of the TELAR will not be so complex beyond its ability to find targets in its sector and illuminate it. Once the TAR data has been relayed to TELAR and TEL batteries, what happens? Aside from waiting for the target to come into range, that is? Can the TELAR's fire control system tell the difference in the identity of the target independently of the TAR? ie, would the battery commander know what it would be firing at if battalion CP did not tell them?
Thank you for taking the time to read. Please do not refrain from pointing out anything that I said or understood wrongly. I am here to learn and accept that my failings as a human can sometimes give me the wrong impression or understanding of what I read. I hope to receive a quick response from anyone qualified or knowledgeable enough to respond.
Have a nice day.