F-22 Raptor Export

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Commander Eagle

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I have been hearing that the FY 2010 Defence Appropriation Bill is being currently discuss in the US Senate which is said to be containing the proposal for lift of ban on F-22 Raptor in which the Janpanese, Australian, Israeli and South Korean have deep interest. Anyone knows more detail information on the current senate discussion?
 
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Bonza

Super Moderator
Staff member
I have been hearing that the FY 2010 Defence Appropriation Bil is being currently discuss in the US Senate which is said to be containing the proposal for lift of ban on F-22 Raptor in which the Janpanese, Australian, Israeli and South Korean have deep interest. Anyone knows more detail information on the current senate discussion?
There's no "deep interest" on Australia's behalf for the F-22. There have been some concentrated attempts on behalf of certain individuals to promote the Raptor as "right for Australia", and a woefully ill-informed media latches on to this from time to time.

The RAAF does not share this view. Nor did the previous government, and nor does the current government as far as I know, beyond some political maneuvering on the part of the ex-Defence Minister - which seemed to be based not on an understanding of capability but instead on media points-scoring while his political party was in opposition. This same Minister then resigned after a series of goings-on ranging from inappropriate to downright corrupt.

So yes, what interest Australia has in the F-22 has been blown out of all proportion, just so you know. :)

As far as the other countries mentioned, I really can't speculate, but I very much doubt you'll be seeing an export Raptor any time soon. The costs involved in developing an "export" variant would be extremely high, and the Raptor is, in USAF service, suffering from serious through-life issues that I suspect would make any air force very cautious about operating the platform. If it's enough to give the USAF a headache, you can imagine how much of an all-out disaster it could turn into for smaller, less well-funded air forces.

Even if L-M were to get the okay to market an export variant, it would be totally unaffordable to the majority of potential customers. Limited users means a limited production run, and that combined with the development costs associated with creating an export variant would mean the per-unit cost would be extremely daunting.

I think we've seen the last of the F-22. From what I know, the US fighter market in the next decade is going to be F-35s, Super Hornets, advanced F-16 derivatives and possibly Silent Eagle - and even that last one isn't looking very likely.
 

Pat-fr-33

New Member
The plane is so expensive the US air force doesn't send any plane anywhere it could be in contact with anything that could hurt it !
Obama has stopped production. There will never be any export.

Just to laugh a little, if i'm not wrong, F-22 was conceived to replace F-15, no ? SO, how many F-22 will there be, and how many F-15 are in service ?
 

jimbobsimmonds

New Member
Purely personal opinion here but in the current world climate i see no export of the F-22, at least not for the next 10 years...

all of the countries above (with the possible exception of Israel) have no need for the F-22, especially when the F-35 is there.

it's as simple as that...
 

Sea Toby

New Member
I have been hearing that the FY 2010 Defence Appropriation Bil is being currently discuss in the US Senate which is said to be containing the proposal for lift of ban on F-22 Raptor in which the Janpanese, Australian, Israeli and South Korean have deep interest. Anyone knows more detail information on the current senate discussion?
Neither the full House or full Senate voted for the Raptor this year. Obama threatened a veto if the Raptor was included. The Raptor line will close when the last of those ordered have been built. The Obey Amendment against export sales is still in effect. The Air Force Generals which asked Congress for more were fired. End of story.....
 

Blue Streak

Banned Member
F-15se

Am I the only who thinks that the F-15 Silent Eagle is by far the most capable and cost-effective air supremacy option against future threats?

We need to move on from the much much vaunted F-22, and what it never delivered and even more importantly that flying duck that is the F-35 - 2 x AMRAAMS!!!



Our forces need a battlewinning Fighter for today - not tomorrow or never.
 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
Please don't take this the wrong way but here are a 5 things you need to take note of.

Am I the only who thinks that the F-15 Silent Eagle is by far the most capable and cost-effective air supremacy option against future threats?
1. There is an existing thread on the F-15 Silent Eagle. You could profit by reading up there.

2. The F-15SE is not in production and it does not even have a flying a demonstrator, yet. If Boeing does not get a customer for their idea soon, it will not enter production.

We need to move on from the much much vaunted F-22, and what it never delivered and even more importantly that flying duck that is the F-35 - 2 x AMRAAMS!!
3. There are many in this forum who would strongly disagree. Further, you don't seem to be conversant with it's current developmental plans. Please consider reading the F-35 Multirole Joint Strike Fighter thread. You will also profit from it.

4. Why would you want to attempt to say that all JSF partner nations and 2 current SCP nations are suckers? I can assure you that they are not. If you want to persist, please post in the appropriate thread so that the members who disagree with you can metaphorically 'bash your head in' there.

Our forces need a battlewinning Fighter for today - not tomorrow or never.
5. It is not cool to take this approach 'platform vs platform' approach. More people in this forum focus on the coherence of the platform's capabilities within an air force. Your other posts in other threads were quite promising, initially, so I would encourage you to read more and post.
 
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Blue Streak

Banned Member
[B said:
OPSSG[/B];182346]5. It is not cool to take this approach 'platform vs platform' approach. More people in this forum focus on the coherence of the platform's capabilities within an air force. Your other posts in other threads were quite promising, initially, so I would encourage you to read more and post.
Hay OPSSG...

I didn't quote your views at any point in my post. I threw up my own opinion and question in the hope of adding to this thread - which let's face it, was going no where.

F-22 export threads on here used to get blocked anyway - it used to be the favourite thread of 'arm-chair generals' not Defence Professionals.

As you say, guess that's why my other threads have so much promise...
 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
Hay OPSSG...

I didn't quote your views at any point in my post. I threw up my own opinion and question in the hope of adding to this thread - which let's face it, was going no where.

F-22 export threads on here used to get blocked anyway - it used to be the favourite thread of 'arm-chair generals' not Defence Professionals.

As you say, guess that's why my other threads have so much promise...
I entered active military service in the late '80s (I celebrated my 20th birthday in a foreign military base while active), entered the 'reserves' in the '90s and have even completed my 'reserve' liabilities a while ago. Therefore, I would also say that I'm now an armchair general.

Cheers. :)
 
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SpudmanWP

The Bunker Group
Am I the only who thinks that the F-15 Silent Eagle is by far the most capable and cost-effective air supremacy option against future threats?
Yes, you are the only one.

By Boeing's own admission the RCS reductions will only be from the front. From all other angles it is still a flying billboard.
0:40 mark [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kn6nx_GGERQ]YouTube - Boeing F-15SE Silent Eagle[/ame]

Since it will cost more than a F-35, how is that "cost effective"? Furthermore, in it's minimum RCS config it does not carry and IRST. That is a seperate pod which will increase it's RCS. btw, The SE's radar does not have LPI modes like the F-22 and F-35.

We need to move on from the much much vaunted F-22, and what it never delivered
It has not had to deliver yet. In all Blue Vs Red scenarios, it has performed superbly. I, for one, am very glad that they are not wasting airframe hours doing A2G missions in Iraq or the Afghanistan.

and even more importantly that flying duck that is the F-35 - 2 x AMRAAMS!!!
You have been misled re the F-35's capabilities. From day 1, the F-35 can carry 4 internal AAMs. At the Blk5 upgrade, scheduled for 2017, it will carry 6-8. Externally, it can carry an additional 10 AAMs.

The F-15SE can barely hold 4 and will NEVER hold more.
1:19 mark in above video.

Our forces need a battlewinning Fighter for today - not tomorrow or never.
You are under the misunderstanding that the F-15SE can fly today... it cannot and furthermore will not before the F-35 goes IOC. That is in 2012 btw, just 3 years from now.
 

Commander Eagle

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #13
As per the information I’ve got, the Senate Defence Appropriation Committee on 10th September 2009 has added a clause in the FY 10 Defence Appropriation Bill (H.R.3326) so that the F-22 Raptor Export Variant could be develop using the Raptor Development fund. The Bill (H.R.3326) has been passed in the Senate on 6th October 2009 without any amendment in removal of the possibility of the development of the F-22 Raptor Export Variant.

The US President who has been repeatedly threaten to veto the FY 10 Defence Appropriation Bill if it contain any funding for additional F-22 is maintaining a complete silence in the F-22 Raptor Export Variant issue, while Defence Secretary, Robert Gates and Senator John McCain who has also not favored additional F-22 for US Air Force have both voice their support for the development of the F-22 Raptor Export Variant.

Presently the Senate have appoints 19 conference members (Including Chairman of the Senate Defence Appropriations Committee, Daniel Inouye) for conference with the House of Representatives which will resolve all the FY 10 Defence Budget (H.R. 3326) difference in the House of Preventatives & Senate Versions (Including development of the F-22 Raptor export variant.)

Thereafter the President will have to sign for the final approval of the bill.

H.R. 3326 TIMELINES

1. Passed by House of Preventatives 30 July, 2009

2. Senate Defence Appropriation Committee approve F-22 Raptor
Export Variant Development
10 September 2009

3. Passed by Senate 6 October, 2009

4. Senate appoint Member for Conference 6 October, 2009

5. House appoint Member for Conference Next Step

6. House of Preventatives & Senate Conference resolves differences. Follow On Step

7. Signed by President Final Step
 
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As per the information I’ve got, the Senate Defence Appropriation Committee on 10th September 2009 has added a clause in the FY 10 Defence Appropriation Bill (H.R.3326) so that the F-22 Raptor Export Variant could be develop using the Raptor Development fund. The Bill (H.R.3326) has been passed in the Senate on 6th October 2009 without any amendment in removal of the possibility of the development of the F-22 Raptor Export Variant.

The US President who has been repeatedly threaten to veto the FY 10 Defence Appropriation Bill if it contain any funding for additional F-22 is maintaining a complete silence in the F-22 Raptor Export Variant issue, while Defence Secretary, Robert Gates and Senator John McCain who has also not favored additional F-22 for US Air Force have both voice their support for the development of the F-22 Raptor Export Variant.

Presently the Senate have appoints 19 conference members (Including Chairman of the Senate Defence Appropriations Committee, Daniel Inouye) for conference with the House of Representatives which will resolve all the FY 10 Defence Budget (H.R. 3326) difference in the House of Preventatives & Senate Versions (Including development of the F-22 Raptor export variant.

Thereafter the President will have to sign for the final approval of the bill.

H.R. 3326 TIMELINES

1. Passed by House of Preventatives 30 July, 2009

2. Senate Defence Appropriation Committee approve F-22 Raptor
Export Variant Development
10 September 2009

3. Passed by Senate 6 October, 2009

4. Senate appoint Member for Conference 6 October, 2009

5. House appoint Member for Conference Next Step

6. House of Preventatives & Senate Conference resolves differences. Follow On Step

7. Signed by President Final Step
If the Japanese are crazy enough to pay 50 to 100 percent more for the export version (as they have indicated in recent past) then I say why not...
 

Commander Eagle

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #15
It seems that you people have some doubt in any country having interest in purchasing the F-22 Raptor Export Variant. Here is the reason why I believe in some developed countries might be interested in the F-22 Raptor Export Variant over the F-35 (The only other Fifth Generation fighter develop in the West):

1. The F-22 Raptor can Super Cruise while F-35 cannot.

2. The F-22 Raptor can Super Maneuver while F-35 cannot.

3. The Degree of Stealth is far better in F-22 Raptor then in the F-35.

4. Russia and India are jointly developing the PAK FA which is expected to be far better then the F-35 and can be matched only by the F-22 Raptor.

5. China is also developing a Fifth Generation Fighter which will prompt the American allies in the Far East region to opt for the most advanced aircraft they can get.

6. Russia, India and China are likely to offer their Fifth Generation Fighter for Export.

5. The F-35 while being classed as a Fifth Generation Fighter cannot super cruise or super maneuver, which are the vital characteristics of Fifth Generation Fighter . (Not to mention that it is way over weight.)
 

Bonza

Super Moderator
Staff member
It seems that you people have some doubt in any country having interest in purchasing the F-22 Raptor Export Variant. Here is the reason why I believe in some developed countries might be interested in the F-22 Raptor Export Variant over the F-35 (The only other Fifth Generation fighter develop in the West):

1. The F-22 Raptor can Super Cruise while F-35 cannot.

2. The F-22 Raptor can Super Maneuver while F-35 cannot.

3. The Degree of Stealth is far better in F-22 Raptor then in the F-35.

4. Russia and India are jointly developing the PAK FA which is expected to be far better then the F-35 and can be matched only by the F-22 Raptor.

5. China is also developing a Fifth Generation Fighter which will prompt the American allies in the Far East region to opt for the most advanced aircraft they can get.

6. Russia, India and China are likely to offer their Fifth Generation Fighter for Export.

5. The F-35 while being classed as a Fifth Generation Fighter cannot super cruise or super maneuver, which are the vital characteristics of Fifth Generation Fighter . (Not to mention that it is way over weight.)
Recommend you do a search through some of the old F-35 and F-22 threads around the place, as these comparisons have brought up over and over again.

One thing I'll say: "super manoeuvrability" is not exactly as game-changing as you seem to think. The advent of high off-boresight missiles with lock on after launch features and the ability to pull in excess of 50 Gs, along with ever-increasing BVR capability, has seen to that.

Supercruise is a different kettle of fish, although I don't know why you call it a "vital characteristic" of a fifth generation fighter aircraft. There have been aircraft able to achieve supercruise to varying degrees for decades now. Remember that a supercruising aircraft doesn't spend all of its time at supersonic speeds - indeed, if it does then range rapidly becomes an issue as even a supercruising engine uses up a hell of a lot more fuel than it would at subsonic speeds. Fighter aircraft - including the F-22 - spend most of their flight time at high subsonic speeds.

I really would recommend doing a search through the forum and reading some relevant threads that already exist. As I said above these issues have been discussed time and again, and some of the threads are highly instructive as to the importance of the above points you mentioned. :)
 
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