This is a discussion on Even More MKIs? within the Air Force & Aviation forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; Just ran into an ARMS-TASS article claiming that India wants another 50 MKIs on top of the 230 currently agreed ...
Is this a mistake? A hoax? Or is this serious? If it is, what would those MKIs replace?
I'm not sure the 50 new MKI's will replace anything, just add to the MKI's fleet.
If this stand true..
It could also be that the Indian DoD thinks the HAL production of the MKIs are going to slow.
"IAF wants 50 more Sukhois to counter China, Pakistan
NEW DELHI: With both China and Pakistan bolstering their air combat fleets, IAF is now seeking another 50 Sukhoi-30MKI multi-role "air dominance"
fighters to cater for any contingency on both the eastern and western
fronts. These 50 new Sukhois will in addition to the 230 of these twin-seater fighters already contracted from Russia in three deals worth upwards of $8.5 billion.
Having inducted 105 of the 230 Sukhois till now, IAF has already begun to base these jets in the North-East in a clear move to counter China's rapid modernisation of its armed forces. Incidentally, Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd has been directed to complete the manufacture of 140 of the 230 Sukhois under transfer of technology by 2015 at all costs.
India's "dissuasive deterrence" military posture against China, after all, revolves around the Sukhois as well as the 3,500km nuclear-capable Agni-III missile, which will be ready for operational deployment by 2011, and the 5,000km range Agni-V missile in the pipeline.
IAF chief Air Chief Marshal P V Naik confirmed to TOI on Thursday that his force was indeed "interested" in acquiring more Sukhois, which will be the mainstay of India's fighter fleet for the forseeable future, to further enhance its combat potential.
Bombarded by a spate of questions on the military equation vis-a-vis China on day the People's Liberation Army showcased its staggering military might to mark 60 years of communism, ACM Naik said IAF's acquisition of combat capabilities was not "country or adversary-specific".
While exuding "confidence" that a repeat of the 1962 conflict was simply "not possible", the IAF chief said, "We need to develop certain capabilities which are required or will be required in the future in tune with India's aspirations."
IAF, after all, needs to project power as well as have "strategic reach" from Hormuz Strait near Persian Gulf right down to Malacca Strait, which India visualises as its primary area of geopolitical interest. In its quest to emerge as a "strategic aerospace force", IAF has embarked on a major modernisation drive, which ranges from Israeli AWACS and aerostat radars to American C-130J 'Super Hercules' aircraft."
Is this a mistake? A hoax? Or is this serious? If it is, what would those MKIs replace?
I have quoted the same in the IAF thread a day back, and surprisingly enough in the context of a discussion we had in Dec08 about final numbers of the Su-30MKIs with the IAF. The news is however about a request from the IAF to the defence ministry though, so it could go either ways in terms of such a order being given out as the procurement decision should be taken by the Defence Ministry to be ratified by the Cabinet Commitee of Security, but one can safely assume that a new IAF chief wouldnt place such a request (and it being made public) if he wasnt convinced that the same would be implemented, what with the increasing threat scenario of an border conflagration between India and its large neigbour to its east and other threats the politicians maybe game for giving in to the IAF's request. And as such the Su-30MKI is a very well regarded fighter with a good safety record
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It could also be that the request is going public as a way of putting public pressure on the decision making process. I'm not well versed on Indian internal politics, but in Russia that tends to be the main reason that debates about weapon purchases are made public.
Is this a mistake? A hoax? Or is this serious? If it is, what would those MKIs replace?
I bet the Russians are pushing SU-35s instead... And why would the indians not want the 35s anyway? It's an obvious upgrade to the capabilities vs the MKIs, and the planes are not that different for maintenance and training purposes.
I bet the Russians are pushing SU-35s instead... And why would the indians not want the 35s anyway? It's an obvious upgrade to the capabilities vs the MKIs, and the planes are not that different for maintenance and training purposes.
The Su-35 might look similar to the Su-30, but there're a lot of internal differences, which would add seperate spares, logistics etc. It's almost like operating to entirely different types. It makes no sense for the Indians to adopt the Su-35, they should rather opt for introducing some of its tech into the Su-30MKI, and that is at least planned to a certain extent.
The Su-35 might look similar to the Su-30, but there're a lot of internal differences, which would add seperate spares, logistics etc. It's almost like operating to entirely different types. It makes no sense for the Indians to adopt the Su-35, they should rather opt for introducing some of its tech into the Su-30MKI, and that is at least planned to a certain extent.
Can you pls enumerate the differences between the Su-30MKI and the Su-35. AFAIK the Su-35 itself was built after being motivated by the improvements the Indian side brought by way purchasing various components to be integrated into the Su-30 which became the Su-30MKI. While am sure there might not be advantages beyond the marginal between the two and hence India not tbeing interested in a diff platform for 50 fighters, i would still like to understand the major differences esp the advancements of the Su-35 over the Su-30MKI just to know what the IAF could be missing or facing in years to come
In all Probability the Mig-21 Bis/M/MF/FL and the Mig-23 which were grounded and in all practical sense has been retired, these fighters which were getting replaced as such will be replaced by the MMRCA fighters as well. In total about (if my research is correct) 191 Mig-21s (non bison variants) would be retired in 2011 and i think some of those Pilots have already applied for VRS (voluntary retirement scheme) rather than go on to newer models. Mig-23 count was about 221 but only about 80 were operational as of last year. So 80 fighters this year plus 191 Mig-21s by 2011 is 271 AC being retired against which so far the addition has been about 105 Su-30MKI and the rest is being planned and finalised and ordered and expected
No wonder the IAF chief is jittery with all these ACs being retired so close to each other and which is why he has instructed the HAL guys to complete delivery on schedule
Can you pls enumerate the differences between the Su-30MKI and the Su-35. AFAIK the Su-35 itself was built after being motivated by the improvements the Indian side brought by way purchasing various components to be integrated into the Su-30 which became the Su-30MKI. While am sure there might not be advantages beyond the marginal between the two and hence India not tbeing interested in a diff platform for 50 fighters, i would still like to understand the major differences esp the advancements of the Su-35 over the Su-30MKI just to know what the IAF could be missing or facing in years to come
I doubt the Su-35 was influenced by the Su-30MKI, as the the former one is a Knappo product, while the later one is an IAPO product and both are competing with each other to a certain extend.
The Su-35 makes use of new material components, has a different internal structure, different avionics, different cockpit displays, different engines and different flight controls. Ofcourse I can't name you any single difference, but there are a lot of them in many crititcal areas.
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I doubt that the Su-35 will even be offered. KnAAPO has already received production orders for 48 Su-35S, as well as continuing modernization to SM for existing Su-27s. IAPO on the other hand could use some more orders, and it happens to be the one that builds the MKIs. India is also asking for the MKIs. It wouldn't make sense to push the Su-35 in those conditions. Though we have done stupid things before...
In a sense the revival of the Su-35 program (the original Su-35 was the Su-27M, and the current Su-35 seems to have taken features from the Su-27M as well as the Su-37 and Su-27SM) may have been stimulated by the success of the MKI. But the two are definetly not of the same lineage. The MKI is a development of the Su-27UB. The Su-35BM is a derivative of the Su-27S. They both go back to the T-10 prototype, but from there their paths split into the:
Su-27S->Su-35(27M)/Su-27SM->Su-35BM/Su-35S
It is difficult to pin down all the Flanker series designations. AFAIK the Su-30MK series was developed as an "export" version and are all distinctly twin seat (pilot/RIO). The Su-35 is single seat (although there is a Su-35UB twin seat). These are two different operational concepts which AFAIK the IAF logically would stay with the Su-30MKI variant.
IMHO the need for additional Su-30MKI arises not only due to concerns with China, but also with delays in the FGFA development.
I doubt that the Su-35 will even be offered. KnAAPO has already received production orders for 48 Su-35S, as well as continuing modernization to SM for existing Su-27s. IAPO on the other hand could use some more orders, and it happens to be the one that builds the MKIs. India is also asking for the MKIs. It wouldn't make sense to push the Su-35 in those conditions. Though we have done stupid things before...
In a sense the revival of the Su-35 program (the original Su-35 was the Su-27M, and the current Su-35 seems to have taken features from the Su-27M as well as the Su-37 and Su-27SM) may have been stimulated by the success of the MKI. But the two are definetly not of the same lineage. The MKI is a development of the Su-27UB. The Su-35BM is a derivative of the Su-27S. They both go back to the T-10 prototype, but from there their paths split into the:
Su-27S->Su-35(27M)/Su-27SM->Su-35BM/Su-35S
and
Su-27UB->Su-30M->Su-30MKI/MKM/MKA.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Salty Dog
It is difficult to pin down all the Flanker series designations. AFAIK the Su-30MK series was developed as an "export" version and are all distinctly twin seat (pilot/RIO). The Su-35 is single seat (although there is a Su-35UB twin seat). These are two different operational concepts which AFAIK the IAF logically would stay with the Su-30MKI variant.
IMHO the need for additional Su-30MKI arises not only due to concerns with China, but also with delays in the FGFA development.
Can either of you be able to help me to understand how the Su-35 (the curent one) has superior features (if any) over the SU-30 MKI, am unable to understand the same from the sources i have read. Currently India posses the most advanced Fighter in the Su-30MKI in the South Asia region (even if slightly so). Has China envinced any interest in the Su-35 ?. Although i think both countries were offered there havent been any orders
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The Iribs should be a little ahead of the Bars. The Su-35BM has more advanced thrust vectoring. I don't know much about it's avionics, but it's suposed to be the platform to test early PAK-FA avionics on, so we can expect some new stuff to appear. It also allegedly uses advanced RAM, and other RCS-reducing techniques. The advantage does seem to be incremental, rather then principal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Salty Dog
It is difficult to pin down all the Flanker series designations. AFAIK the Su-30MK series was developed as an "export" version and are all distinctly twin seat (pilot/RIO). The Su-35 is single seat (although there is a Su-35UB twin seat).
I've never heard of an Su-35UB... is it something I missed?
Also actually it's not that hard to trace the Flanker lineages. All the two seats come from Su-27UB, and all the single-seaters from the Su-27S, with the exception of the Su-33 which came directly from the T-10K prototype, due to necessary body changes. The Su-30MK is just an Su-30M, that's getting exported. Where the real deviation starts is when India practically had the Su-30MK turned into a whole new aircraft, which was sold as the MKI.
IAPO on the other hand could use some more orders, and it happens to be the one that builds the MKIs.
Does that mean that if the orders are given to IAPO for fighters in a fly - away condition they will be able to deliver in 3-4 yrs time or less from date of order ? . I ask beacuse i dont know about the production capability
The Iribs should be a little ahead of the Bars. The Su-35BM has more advanced thrust vectoring. I don't know much about it's avionics, but it's suposed to be the platform to test early PAK-FA avionics on, so we can expect some new stuff to appear. It also allegedly uses advanced RAM, and other RCS-reducing techniques. The advantage does seem to be incremental, rather then principal.
Hmmm
The MKI is supposed to be updated to a newer variant where the Bars radar is going to be upgraded to AESA mode, to enhance the situational awareness AESA T/R modules are being fixed on the aircraft’s wings. Also radar absorbent material for IAF Su-30MKIs is also being developed to reduce the otherwise large RCS image on enemy radars, apparently the airframes are also getting modified to make them stealthy. There was also a talk that the Avionics being developed for the PAK-FA/FGFA can be incoporated into the new variant as well. All in all looks to me that a advanced variant of the Su-30MKI when it comes out will not be sufficently unbalanced against a Su-35. Thanks for the info Feanor
