Eurofighter Rafale and Gripen v. JSF

fylr71

New Member
how do the eurofighter, rafale, and gripen expect to achieve foreign sales when they are up against the f-35?. From what I understand Eurofighter at 83 million offers similar but better capabilites then rafale at 50 million. Gripen is a bargan at 25 million and is only slighty less capable then the other European fighters. All three are 4.5 generation. The f-35 will probably cost 50-60 million and will be just as stealthy as an f-117 and is considered a 5th generation fighter. How then does Dassault and the Eurofighter consortium expect to comptete with that?
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
First to say is, that nobody already knows how cheap or expensive the F-35 is going to get.
About the F-35 as stealthy as F-117A argument I let the experts tell their opinion. ;) :D
 

tphuang

Super Moderator
fylr71 said:
how do the eurofighter, rafale, and gripen expect to achieve foreign sales when they are up against the f-35?. From what I understand Eurofighter at 83 million offers similar but better capabilites then rafale at 50 million. Gripen is a bargan at 25 million and is only slighty less capable then the other European fighters. All three are 4.5 generation. The f-35 will probably cost 50-60 million and will be just as stealthy as an f-117 and is considered a 5th generation fighter. How then does Dassault and the Eurofighter consortium expect to comptete with that?
F-35 is not going to be that cheap. the typhoon, rafale and gripen are not as cheap as your listed price either. Do a little research on the past details involving these planes.
 

SABRE

Super Moderator
Verified Defense Pro
Lockheed-Martin estimated JSF's price to be $50million/unit couple of months back... but it was just an estimation. The real prince may just go high.

As for how are EF-2000, Rafale & Gripen going to do against JSF when it comes to export. Well, price is not the only factor involved while purchasing fighter aircrafts. You have got to see risk factors, availablity etc ... & in that department EF-2000, Gripen & Rafale are in better possition right now. European aircrafts come with lesser political risk than US aircrafts.
 

rjmaz1

New Member
The JSF is going to cost WELL over 100 million dollars. It'll be funny in 5 years time when they say it will cost 150 million each, this is highly likely to happen. So much for it being a budget fighter.

At that price you could have 50 Gripens or only 10 or so JSF aircraft. Most small countries would go for the Gripen just so they can have enough aircraft.

The Eurofighter will come off worst in my opinion as it is quite expensive for what it is.

You actually forgot to mention the biggest threat to the sales of these aircraft the F16. The F-16 block 60 has already taken alot of the Eurofighters sales due to the fact its less than half the price and performance is very similar in every way.

The F16 has also taken Gripen sales too from the smaller countries. The Gripen is a great aircraft, very cheap but pay a bit more and you get an F-16 with longer range, similar performance and an excellent track record. The F-16 block 60 is still the best "bang for your buck" aircraft by a long margin.

Greece, Oman, Chile, Poland and Israel are all currently purchasing hundreds of F-16's between them. Thats more export sales than the Gripen, Rafale and Eurofighter combined!!
 
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Cootamundra

New Member
rjmaz1 said:
The JSF is going to cost WELL over 100 million dollars. It'll be funny in 5 years time when they say it will cost 150 million each, this is highly likely to happen. So much for it being a budget fighter.
Really!!!

Geez, I'd love to have that forward looking futurescope you have...I'd make millions in the lotto :laugh

Despite all the commentry on this board across the various JSF related threads we don't know how much the final cost of Australia's JSFs are going to cost. We have a range of JSF naysayers around here - Occum and others make plenty of valid comments around projected costs but we need to keep in mind that Australia is NOT paying for large amounts of the development for this aircraft and we won't be purchasing them until the 2012-13 (nd onwards) time frame.

In the last senate estimates committee hearing Shep clearly stated that based on their latest information the cost of the JSF was still looking like it was in the range of 40-50 mill (USD) in 2001 dollars. Everything else is speculation. Do you work on the JSF program? Does Occum? Do I? I don't think any of us do, so for now all we're doing is arguing about something that we'll only ever be able to do based on publicly available data.

The Raptor is NOT going to be made available to AUS (yes, even us), but then we've not even asked because one thing we do know is that the Raptor does cost 126 mill USD in current dollars. Is it multirole - no it is not. Could it be - probably. All the other aircraft mentioned have good and bad points, just like the JSF but one thing is for sure, the sensor fusion side of the F-35 will be the best we've seen.
 

Wild Weasel

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
A minor quibble:

If the Raptor can carry and deliver air-to-ground ordinance, ( And we know it can ) I don't know how you can say that it isn't multi-role.

Did you mean export varients?
 

Magoo

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
rjmaz1 said:
The JSF is going to cost WELL over 100 million dollars. It'll be funny in 5 years time when they say it will cost 150 million each, this is highly likely to happen. So much for it being a budget fighter.

At that price you could have 50 Gripens or only 10 or so JSF aircraft. Most small countries would go for the Gripen just so they can have enough aircraft.
Sources please!

rjmaz1 said:
The F-16 block 60 has already taken alot of the Eurofighters sales due to the fact its less than half the price and performance is very similar in every way.
The F-16E/F has been sold to ONE country only, the UAE.

rjmaz1 said:
The F-16 block 60 is still the best "bang for your buck" aircraft by a long margin.
Again, sources please. Some analysts predict the UAE paid more than US$100m each for their Block 60s.

Magoo
 

Cootamundra

New Member
Wild Weasel said:
A minor quibble:

If the Raptor can carry and deliver air-to-ground ordinance, ( And we know it can ) I don't know how you can say that it isn't multi-role.

Did you mean export varients?
No I meant the current USAF model that if I recall is only getting cleared for air to ground ordinance - I'll stand corrected, but is this aircarft not meant to be a stand out air to air superiority fighter. Any air to around capability is very much secondary.

Also, as far as I'm aware there are NO export varients. Again i'll stand corrected;)
 

Wild Weasel

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
It is cleared ( or will soon be, as a minor formality ) for the GBU-38. I expect that it will also be cleared for the GBU-39 in the very near future.
Yes, the Raptor was meant to be a standout air-superiority fighter/interceptor. So was the F-14 and F-15.
But a secondary land attack role, is still an additional capability- thus it is currently multi-role capable.

And no, I can neither confirm, nor deny, any Raptors or varients thereof- for export.
 

tphuang

Super Moderator
back to the original question.

The answer is that they are not.

You are talking about a group of planes that can't beat out the teens in exports, let alone JSF.

Gripen hasn't had a sale in a long time despite putting their plane in every country's competition pretty much.

Rafale still doesn't have an export deal.

Typhoon got the Saudi deal and is probably the only one that can compete against JSF in the export market due to its own capabilities.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
fylr71 said:
how do the eurofighter, rafale, and gripen expect to achieve foreign sales when they are up against the f-35?. From what I understand Eurofighter at 83 million offers similar but better capabilites then rafale at 50 million. Gripen is a bargan at 25 million and is only slighty less capable then the other European fighters. All three are 4.5 generation. The f-35 will probably cost 50-60 million and will be just as stealthy as an f-117 and is considered a 5th generation fighter. How then does Dassault and the Eurofighter consortium expect to comptete with that?
If you want a fighter delivered before 2015, you can't buy F-35. That's an advantage for the others. If you don't want US restrictions, you can't buy F-35 (or Gripen, but that's solvable, at a price). And, as has been said, nobody yet knows what an F-35 will cost.
 

old faithful

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
F16 block 60/62 was developed for UAE. They paid for the development R&D. Any exports of block 60,s will carry a royalty payment to the UAE. The last off the shelf varient of the F16 is block 50/52+. Its a great aircraft, but not comparable to Typhoon. The only real advantage that Typoon/Rafale has over JSF is that it dosnt have the strings attached that the JSF will,its available now.Rafale has one advantage over Typhoon, in that all componants/systems come from one nation compared to Typhoons four. Could be vital if you are flying Typhoon agaisnt a nation friendly with one of its suppliers.
 

rjmaz1

New Member
The F-16 block 60 is right on 100million US dollars per aircraft INCLUDING the development costs whichs the UAE paid for which was 3 billion US dollars. They paid a total of 8 billion for 80 aircraft including the 3 billion for development. That leaves 5 billion for the actual aircrafts themselves

The actual price of an F-16 Block 60 excluding development cost is only 62.5 million per aircraft in current dollars. The development cost has now been paid for so only money on top of that would be a royalty fee to the UAE which surely would only be a few million per aircraft. Thats just a guess i have no idea about royalty fee's for aircraft.

Now the reasons why is aid the F16 Block 60 is the best bang for your buck aircraft is because the performance is similar yet the F-16 is cheaper. The radars are very similar performance wise. ECR-90 versus APG-80 is a close match i'd say the F-16 radar is actually superior. The APG-80 uses the same radar technology as the JSF and F-22, however just another size down from the JSF radar, just the the JSF radar is a size down from the F-22.

Flight Performance of the two aircraft, range, speed, agility are also close match. They both have advanced avionics, FLIR and carry similar weopons.

The F-16 however costs significantly less than the Eurofighter. Eurofighter costs between 80 and 90 million per aircraft. So you get similar performance with the Block 60 F-16 at a bargain 25% off! Excellent Bang for your buck!!

Then look at the F-16 block 50's are also decent at 45million is 2000 dollars so around 50million per aircraft in current dollars you get something that is superior to the Gripen. All the potential buyers of the Gripen and buying the Block 50 F-16's.
 

contedicavour

New Member
rjmaz1 said:
The JSF is going to cost WELL over 100 million dollars. It'll be funny in 5 years time when they say it will cost 150 million each, this is highly likely to happen. So much for it being a budget fighter.

At that price you could have 50 Gripens or only 10 or so JSF aircraft. Most small countries would go for the Gripen just so they can have enough aircraft.

The Eurofighter will come off worst in my opinion as it is quite expensive for what it is.

You actually forgot to mention the biggest threat to the sales of these aircraft the F16. The F-16 block 60 has already taken alot of the Eurofighters sales due to the fact its less than half the price and performance is very similar in every way.

The F16 has also taken Gripen sales too from the smaller countries. The Gripen is a great aircraft, very cheap but pay a bit more and you get an F-16 with longer range, similar performance and an excellent track record. The F-16 block 60 is still the best "bang for your buck" aircraft by a long margin.

Greece, Oman, Chile, Poland and Israel are all currently purchasing hundreds of F-16's between them. Thats more export sales than the Gripen, Rafale and Eurofighter combined!!
I am surprised by your saying that the F16 (even block 60) is "very similar in every way" to the Typhoon :rolleyes: You are comparing a 2-engine long-range 4.5 generation fighterbomber with the latest evolution of a short-range single-engine jet which started its career almost 30 years ago !!
The countries you mention as buyers of F16 versus Typhoon were looking for the characteristics of a F16 with its price range, they never really seriously considered acquiring a more capable and logically more expensive Typhoon !
 

rattmuff

Lurk-loader?
fylr71 said:
how do the eurofighter, rafale, and gripen expect to achieve foreign sales when they are up against the f-35?. From what I understand Eurofighter at 83 million offers similar but better capabilites then rafale at 50 million. Gripen is a bargan at 25 million and is only slighty less capable then the other European fighters. All three are 4.5 generation. The f-35 will probably cost 50-60 million and will be just as stealthy as an f-117 and is considered a 5th generation fighter. How then does Dassault and the Eurofighter consortium expect to comptete with that?
Mostly depends on the buyers needs.

A F-35 for 50-60 million USD? What kind of things is included? Just the aircraft?
Czech Republic leased 14 Gripens for 55-60 million USD per aircraft, they did choose the whole package. But still, they just leased them!
 

rjmaz1

New Member
contedicavour said:
I am surprised by your saying that the F16 (even block 60) is "very similar in every way" to the Typhoon :rolleyes: You are comparing a 2-engine long-range 4.5 generation fighterbomber with the latest evolution of a short-range single-engine jet which started its career almost 30 years ago !!
The countries you mention as buyers of F16 versus Typhoon were looking for the characteristics of a F16 with its price range, they never really seriously considered acquiring a more capable and logically more expensive Typhoon !
The two aircraft are very similar, speed, weight, agility and avionics. Considering two people have no disagreed i'll no post solid data.

2 medium engine versus 1 big engine aircraft.

4.5 generation eurofighter versus a 3rd generation F16 with 4.5 generation avionics.

Internal fuel:
Eurofighter - 4,900kg
F16 Block 60 - 4,600kg

Empty Weight:
Eurofighter - 11,000kg
F16 Block 60- 9,100kg

Engine Thrust:
Eurofighter - 18,000kg
F16 Block 60 - 14,500kg

Maximum Take off:
Eurofighter - 23,582kg
F16 Block 60 - 23,500kg ;)

Radar Performance:
The F16 Block 60 radar is no doubt superior to the Eurofighters, this will offset the difference in radar cross section. So both aircraft will detect each other at similar long range. The APG-80 AESA radar is a small version of the F-22's Radar. Its radar when active cannot be detected like the F-22's, thus giving the F16 a huge advantage.

Price:
Eurofighter - US 85 Million
F16 Block 60 - US 65 Million

So the latest F-16 has much longer range and is larger than most people think. The conformal tanks has really transformed the F-16 giving it nearly 50% more internal fuel. Just like the F-15E conformal tanks these are considered part of the air frame.

In the bomb trucking role the F16 can carry more weight than the Eurofighter.
 

marxist_command

New Member
rjmaz1 said:
The two aircraft are very similar, speed, weight, agility and avionics. Considering two people have no disagreed i'll no post solid data.

2 medium engine versus 1 big engine aircraft.

4.5 generation eurofighter versus a 3rd generation F16 with 4.5 generation avionics.

Internal fuel:
Eurofighter - 4,900kg
F16 Block 60 - 4,600kg

Empty Weight:
Eurofighter - 11,000kg
F16 Block 60- 9,100kg

Engine Thrust:
Eurofighter - 18,000kg
F16 Block 60 - 14,500kg

Maximum Take off:
Eurofighter - 23,582kg
F16 Block 60 - 23,500kg ;)

Radar Performance:
The F16 Block 60 radar is no doubt superior to the Eurofighters, this will offset the difference in radar cross section. So both aircraft will detect each other at similar long range. The APG-80 AESA radar is a small version of the F-22's Radar. Its radar when active cannot be detected like the F-22's, thus giving the F16 a huge advantage.

Price:
Eurofighter - US 85 Million
F16 Block 60 - US 65 Million

So the latest F-16 has much longer range and is larger than most people think. The conformal tanks has really transformed the F-16 giving it nearly 50% more internal fuel. Just like the F-15E conformal tanks these are considered part of the air frame.

In the bomb trucking role the F16 can carry more weight than the Eurofighter.
So in few words, F-_series is better than Eurofighter?
 

McZosch

New Member
Globalsecurity is stating the Typhoons fly-away-price at 58 million US$.http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/eurofighter.htm

Found two other sources indicating the same. Total system cost per airframe are 83 million US$, according to BMV (DoD) of Germany. That's including development, not to be accounted on export-sales.

Combat readiness of the F-35 will be around 2013. Thats 7 years from now. Price tag on current estimates is 40 to 50 million US$. If I only count inflation (3.2 % in the US in 2005; makes 24,66 % over 7 years), it will be 50 to 62,5 million US$. That's very optimistic, because it doesn't take account on possible technical problems. So I expect the fly-away-price tag at 70-75 million US$ in 2013 for a single-engined short-range aircraft.

All info I found backs the graphic stated on the Eurofighter-Homepage.

Comparing the F-16 Block 60 with the EF is nonsense. The EF is an air-superiority fighter with a secondary ground-attack role. F-16 is vice-versa. The Block 60 is very likely to be the last edition of the F-16. The EF is still produced with Tranche 1. AESA-radar will come with Tranche 3 at the latest. And the comparision in agility was meant as a joke, wasn't it?:lol3 Sustained 6-7g at Mach 1.5 is only matched by F-22, climb rate is much higher than F-16.
 
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