EA/18G Growler

[JBodnar39]

You're kidding right??? Yes, it has more range (+35% internal), payload (+32%) and bring back capability (+50%). But, it also has vastly more advanced integrated systems, the AESA radar (which cannot be fitted to a C model or even the first 125 built E/F models either), built-in low observables, and so much more room for future growth. No, it's not an F-35, but it sure as hell aint an F/A-18A+ either. Don't forget folks, our HUGged Hornets may have some systems which in some ways are better then late build C/Ds, but they're still A model engines and A model airframes, and therefore still carry those inadequacies.


Magoo

Thanks for the info. A range increas of 35% only results in a combat radius increase of less than 20%, however I did not know that you couldn't fit the AESA radar on the C models

[chrishorne]

I'm a bit surprised a f-18e/f could be considered a 'stopgap' for the F-111s until the F-35s come online. I completely understand Australia wanting some F-18Gs but as a 'stopgap' (i.e. not really - still buy F-35s but keep these) with far more credability I would of though something like the F-15SG would be more appropiate. Yes its almost certainly more expensive (althou prob not as much as you would think - SuperHornets are bloody expensive for what they are), and I doubt there is much to gain by having a mixture of f-18a/b and f-18e/f as they are pretty much completely different aircraft. That is, from the comments that the stopgap is need to fill the strategic/tatical strike role . . on the other hand if australia actually needed a stopgap for the fighter role then its hard to go past the eurofighter (especially with the meteor missile or Amraam Ds)

[Sea Toby]

Frankly, I don't see any need for every aircraft to be a stealth aircraft. I highly agree that a mix of Super Hornets and Lightnings would be a proper course to upgrade Australia's air force. Australia should be able to acquire and receive some quickly.

As an American, I don't have any expectations that the Lightnings will ever be built, surely not in large numbers by the Democrats. Take my word to heart, Democrats search to cut defence spending, the top item on their list will be to cut the F-35 since the Repubicans have already ended the F-22 program.

I expect Australia will have to eventually buy their new fleet entirely with Super Hornets. However, any Rafael or Typhoon aircraft purchase will take much longer for any delivery.

[Aussie Digger]

Originally Posted by chrishorne

I'm a bit surprised a f-18e/f could be considered a 'stopgap' for the F-111s until the F-35s come online. I completely understand Australia wanting some F-18Gs but as a 'stopgap' (i.e. not really - still buy F-35s but keep these) with far more credability I would of though something like the F-15SG would be more appropiate. Yes its almost certainly more expensive (althou prob not as much as you would think - SuperHornets are bloody expensive for what they are), and I doubt there is much to gain by having a mixture of f-18a/b and f-18e/f as they are pretty much completely different aircraft. That is, from the comments that the stopgap is need to fill the strategic/tatical strike role . . on the other hand if australia actually needed a stopgap for the fighter role then its hard to go past the eurofighter (especially with the meteor missile or Amraam Ds)

The F/A-18E/F is the only aircraft being considered because, a) it is in full rate production, which is ahead of schedule meaning potentially up to 12 aircraft could be delivered within 2 years and b) it will be the easiest aircraft for RAAF to transition onto whilst still providing an excellent capability enhancement over existing RAAF fighters, c) it has the greatest commonality with RAAF's existing fighters out of all the options, meaning that supporting the aircraft will be easier than any other fighter.

Eurofighter, F-15, Rafale etc cannot match these requirements, thus they have little to no chance, no matter how capable they might be.

[weasel1962]

Deleted

[Todjaeger]

Originally Posted by weasel1962

Actually, there's a simple mathematical reason.

Let's say right now, Australia maintains 5 sqn (2 F111s + 3 F18s).

If 2 sqns of F18s are procured today, sure, the RAAF maintains a stronger fleet and in fact expands defence spending and pilot requirement because of the new Tiger/wedgetail pilots.

A decade later, when the JSF comes onboard, the F18Cs are not yet due to retire (esp after a recent upgrade program), the new F18s are just within their first decade of service. To introduce the JSF then would mean having to create new squadrons or retire the F18Cs earlier. Its all a question of cost. Doable? Definitely BUT it will be a question of cost.

Now if the RAAF leases F18s in the interim whilst shifting some F111 pilots to helos/AEW, a decade later, it can immediately replace the 2 short sqns with JSFs and look to retire the F18Cs at the end of their natural service lives with more JSF purchases (not having spent $$$ on 2 new sqns of F18s). Ultimately F18s will be phased out sooner without sacrificing pilots.

Just to clarify, I'm not saying that purchasing 2 sqns of F18s is a bad idea or that its not doable. In fact, purchasing 2 new sqns will be a significant boost in capabilities. Just that if cost is a signficant factor, I'm sure the MoD is running the same numbers.

Okay, a few points to go over here. For starters, new F-18 C/Ds are not available, production of the C/D models has ended something like ten years ago. Also, the current Hornets operated by the RAAF are the A/B models. The only F-18s currently in production are the E/F/G Super Hornets.

Right now the RAAF operates approx. 24 F-111C/G/RF-111C in the strike, maritime strike, photo-recon & training (for the F-111 platform). According to current plan, the F-111 will be retired in three years, sometime in 2010, having had over 35 years of service. That will leave approx. 57 F-18 A/B Hornets in RAAF service, these cover the air defence, CAS, strike, maritime strike and training/OCU roles. Also, given the age and wear on the F-18 A/Bs (acquired in the early 80's) after the HUG/center barrel replacement, many will still need to be replaced in the 2014-2016 timeframe.

The idea behind the possible lease/purchase of the Super Hornet is to cover the time when the 24 F-111s are not in service, and as a possible cushion for when some of the HUG F-18s have to be retired if there are any F-35 delays.

It has been mentioned that F-111 pilots could be transitioned to either the Tiger ARH or Wedgetail AEW until F-35s are available, however there are several issues with this.

For starters, the Tiger ARH is an Army Aviation, not RAAF aircraft. It has a role completely different from either the F-111 or F-18. A Tiger ARH is for tactical recon & battlefield CAS, an RF-111 is strategic recon, and the F-18 can do CAS, but that isn't a main tasking. Also, there completely different requirements for operating a fast jet like the F-111 or F-18 vs. helicopter training & operations. Lastly, the Tiger ARH is replacing the gunship configured Army UH-1 Iroquois "Huey" so that itself isn't a new capability but an upgrade/replacement of an existing ability.

The Wedgetail AEW&C is a new capability the RAAF will have, but in terms of requirements for piloting, it's basically a Boeing 737-700 (or is it -800?) commercial jet with a canoe-fairing. It is used to detect & track targets, not engage them like an F-111 or F-18 would.

Lastly, part of the goal is to maintain approximately 80 available combat aircraft for the different roles the RAAF has. Unless either the F-35 becomes available sooner than expected or an interim/additional aircraft is purchased, the RAAF will not be able to maintain an 80 aircraft force until 2014 when the F-35 is initially expected.

To reiterate, the purchase of 2 sqd. of Super Hornets would not really be a boost for the RAAF, it would instead maintain capability between the retirement of the F-111 and introduction of the F-35. It would also ease or reduce potential problems if there are further delays on the F-35 in-service date, since by then many of the F-18 Hornets will have reached the end-of-service life, even with the HUG program.

-Cheers

[Jezza]

I have always wondered how the Australian & Canadian F/A-18A/B Hornets would go in a mid-life upgrade, which removed the aircrafts heavy and unnecessary carrier gear i.e. carrier landing gear, folding wings etc (replaced by solid one-piece wings). Add to this the more powerful GE 404 engines of the later F/A-18C/D model. Would this not suffice to give the F/A-18A/B Hornet’s a significant improvement in flight performance, power-to-weight ratio & maneuverability to see it through till the F-35 is (unfortunately) put into service?

Well that just my thought!

[alexsa]

Originally Posted by Jezza

I have always wondered how the Australian & Canadian F/A-18A/B Hornets would go in a mid-life upgrade, which removed the aircrafts heavy and unnecessary carrier gear i.e. carrier landing gear, folding wings etc (replaced by solid one-piece wings). Add to this the more powerful GE 404 engines of the later F/A-18C/D model. Would this not suffice to give the F/A-18A/B Hornet’s a significant improvement in flight performance, power-to-weight ratio & maneuverability to see it through till the F-35 is (unfortunately) put into service?

Well that just my thought!

Perhaps ..... but at considerable cost and you still would not get all the systems carried in the later F-18F we are looking at nor is such and option low risk. Given this would only be for a limited number of airframes the developement cost could be quite high per airframe.

[chrisrobsoar]

@Todjaege

I agree with your reasoning and assessment.

With only 57 F-18 aircraft it will be very difficult to maintain 3 operational squadrons at full strength, allowing for training, scheduled maintenance and crucially the mid-life update program where on some of the aircraft the centre barrel will be replaced.

I do not have the details to hand, but I have the impression that that not all aircraft will receive the full update. Can someone provide details?

Also does the 57 aircraft include platforms allocated to training and support units?

Having additional F/A-18E/F aircraft will enable F-18A/C/D aircraft to be withdrawn from service for update while maintaining the current operation strength.

BTW I was going to argue that switching the F-111 pilots on to radically different types of aircraft was impractical, but I decided not to waste may time with such a non-starter.



Chris

[Jezza]

F-111 replacement and one airframe required........



http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a3...747cruise1.jpg

[weasel1962]

Deleted

[Magoo]

Originally Posted by weasel1962

This is the official info on the Hornet upgrade which should cover all RAAF F18s.
http://www.defence.gov.au/dmo/asd/air5376/air5376.cfm

http://www.boeing.com/global/Austral...rt/hornet.html

Tod, noted with thanks.

I'm treating the F18s in RAAF service as -C versions. I understand capabilities are almost the same and look forward to your highlighting the differences. One obvious exception would be the recent RwR fiasco.

RAAF F18 deliveries began in 1984 and was completed in 1990 (B versions) which means based on the 6000 hour/30 year lifespan, F18s should last at least to 2014-2020.

If JSFs do get delayed, I think the lease option can be explored at a later date. Still, I think current philosophy appears to go/entrenched with the idea of an all-JSF fleet rather than a mixed JSF/SH.

I'll look forward to being pleasantly surprised over the next few years. Only 8, almost 7, years to go to 2014.

Trouble is, testing done by Canada and Australia showed the Hornets would only reach 73% of their designed centre-barrel fatigue life before significant risk started creeping in, i.e. a little over 4300 hours instead of the designed 6000.

Our issues are different to those of the USN which has forecast a 78% design life for its jets and is experiencing fatigue issues in different areas, mainly due to carrier traps and launches. Ours are mainly induced by higher G loadings because our jets are more fighter-oriented than the mainly strike USN jets.

The RAAF is currently planning to do between 42 and 49 centre barrels, and this is unlikely to change if we get Super Hornets. The Supers will mainly be employed within the ex-F-111 community and skillset, whereas the fighter world will still be required to maintain the same flying hours and trainee throughput right up until F-35 introduction.

Magoo

[Aussie Digger]

Originally Posted by chrisrobsoar

@Todjaege

I agree with your reasoning and assessment.

With only 57 F-18 aircraft it will be very difficult to maintain 3 operational squadrons at full strength, allowing for training, scheduled maintenance and crucially the mid-life update program where on some of the aircraft the centre barrel will be replaced.

I do not have the details to hand, but I have the impression that that not all aircraft will receive the full update. Can someone provide details?

Also does the 57 aircraft include platforms allocated to training and support units?

Having additional F/A-18E/F aircraft will enable F-18A/C/D aircraft to be withdrawn from service for update while maintaining the current operation strength.

BTW I was going to argue that switching the F-111 pilots on to radically different types of aircraft was impractical, but I decided not to waste may time with such a non-starter.



Chris

Australia operates 71x F/A-18A/B aircraft. The "57" number I referred to earlier is the number of "operational" airframes within the "operational" Squadrons, (3 Sqn, 75 Sqn and 77 Sqn) additional Hornets equip 2 OCU, ARDU and an "attrition" pool...

ALL RAAF Hornets are undergoing the Hornet upgrade project, and will have the same APG-73 radar and other capabilities of the HUG project. Not all are going through the centre barrel replacement program however.

[knightrider4]

There is an article in todays edition of the Australian. Evidently the purchase of 24 Super Hornets is a goer and will cost $3 Billion AUD to be in service from 2009-2010. Sorry I couldnt provide a link as I,m using a friends computer and I dont know how to cut and paste with an Apple.

[Jezza]

$3bn on Super Hornet fighters

• Patrick Walters, National security editor
• December 20, 2006

DEFENCE Minister Brendan Nelson intends to ram through a $3 billion purchase of 24 F/A-18F Super Hornet aircraft, amid concerns Australia may lack a fully deployable air combat capability early next decade.

Dr Nelson has accelerated plans to buy the upgraded Hornets through a US Defence Department purchase from the US navy. His swift action came as a surprise to senior defence officials on Russell Hill.
The decision to buy an expensive interim fighter will generate a major rethink of the 2006-16 defence capability plan, with the prospect of a cut in the 100-strong Joint Strike Fighter fleet planned for the RAAF.
Senior defence sources said Dr Nelson wanted to run no risk of an air combat capability gap, with the F-111 strike force due to retire in 2010.
A key concern is that the Joint Strike Fighter, destined to become the RAAF's new frontline combat aircraft, may be subject to congressional budget cuts, leading to production delays.
On current plans, the first JSF squadron will enter operational service in Australia in 2014-15.
Acquiring a full squadron of Super Hornets from 2009-10 will enable the RAAF to retire its 22 operational F-111s in 2010 without the need for a further costly extension of their service life. It would also mean the air force could reduce to 42 the number of aircraft taking part in the full $1.5 billion Hornet upgrade program.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...-31477,00.html