EA/18G Growler

[Whiskyjack]

Originally Posted by Magoo

Yes, a dedicated jammer crew would need to retain a degree of currency, so my "for, not with" suggestion may not be feasible operationally. Interestingly, a Super Hornet recently demonstrated a limited electronic attack capability by using its ALR-67(v)3 EW kit to direct its APG-79 radar against an electronic emitter and successfully jam it. I'm told the Super has other capabilities such as this yet to be revealed.

Magoo

Have RAAF personnel flying with the US operationally on exchange etc.. might be one way.

[Aussie Digger]

Originally Posted by Magoo

Only "fair"???

"Fair" meaning: good. Still, I think the HMAS Anzac and Seahawk "Atlantic" deployment was the best article I've read this year in AA. No disrespect intended of course...

IN relation to a possible RAAF F/A-18E/F buy/lease, how will it effect the Hornet CBR program? Unless of course they are intending the SH to replace the "oldest" platforms and only do the minimum already funded??? If the SH is to replace the F-111 early as mentioned, the Hornets will still need to be refurbished...

[Magoo]

Originally Posted by Aussie Digger

"Fair" meaning: good. Still, I think the HMAS Anzac and Seahawk "Atlantic" deployment was the best article I've read this year in AA. No disrespect intended of course...

Agree it was a good read - Tony Holmes is a good writer.

Originally Posted by Aussie Digger

IN relation to a possible RAAF F/A-18E/F buy/lease, how will it effect the Hornet CBR program? Unless of course they are intending the SH to replace the "oldest" platforms and only do the minimum already funded??? If the SH is to replace the F-111 early as mentioned, the Hornets will still need to be refurbished...

Firstly, I think we can discount any possibility of a lease - why would you lease a combat aircraft which may be shot down and over which you have no sovereign rights? Imagine the insurance???

As for affecting HUG 3.2 (centre barrels), it all depends on the timing. Our first aircraft is being re-barrelled as we speak (or as we type), and work on the rest of the fleet is expected to kick off this time next year. I guess we'd better have Plan B up and running by then if we're headed down that road! Currently CBRs 15 are funded and DMO is asking for funding for up to 49.

48 Super Hornets could probably adequately cover the replacement of the F-111s in 2010, and as the 'classics' time-expire from 2010, carry us comfortably through to a mature JSF arriving in 2017-2021, and then form the lower of a two-tiered combat force.

Magoo

[Aussie Digger]

Originally Posted by Magoo

Agree it was a good read - Tony Holmes is a good writer.



Firstly, I think we can discount any possibility of a lease - why would you lease a combat aircraft which may be shot down and over which you have no sovereign rights? Imagine the insurance???

As for affecting HUG 3.2 (centre barrels), it all depends on the timing. Our first aircraft is being re-barrelled as we speak (or as we type), and work on the rest of the fleet is expected to kick off this time next year. I guess we'd better have Plan B up and running by then if we're headed down that road! Currently CBRs 15 are funded and DMO is asking for funding for up to 49.

48 Super Hornets could probably adequately cover the replacement of the F-111s in 2010, and as the 'classics' time-expire from 2010, carry us comfortably through to a mature JSF arriving in 2017-2021, and then form the lower of a two-tiered combat force.

Magoo

Plenty of nations "lease" combat aircraft. NZ intended to with it's proposed F-16 fleet and Italy currently does with it's fleet of 34x F-16A/B's. Austria is also currently leasing 12x F-5II's until it's Typhoons arrive, so it's not un-precedented.

Boeing also offered such a lease to Australia a while back with the deal being that Canada would eventually purchase the aircraft in 2015 or so...

It would be a way of gaining a deterrent without the capital expenditure involved in purchasing a new aircraft fleet and would mean that when JSF is ready we could purchase an entirely new fleet that we prefer at a time that suits us better (ie: when most of the risk has been eliminated and the costs AND capability are more accurately known...)

Let's face it, we're hardly likely to want to use the aircraft in a situation the US disapproved of, are we?

[Magoo]

Originally Posted by Aussie Digger

Plenty of nations "lease" combat aircraft. NZ intended to with it's proposed F-16 fleet and Italy currently does with it's fleet of 34x F-16A/B's. Austria is also currently leasing 12x F-5II's until it's Typhoons arrive, so it's not un-precedented.

Boeing also offered such a lease to Australia a while back with the deal being that Canada would eventually purchase the aircraft in 2015 or so...

It would be a way of gaining a deterrent without the capital expenditure involved in purchasing a new aircraft fleet and would mean that when JSF is ready we could purchase an entirely new fleet that we prefer at a time that suits us better (ie: when most of the risk has been eliminated and the costs AND capability are more accurately known...)

Let's face it, we're hardly likely to want to use the aircraft in a situation the US disapproved of, are we?

Yeah, true, but just from my discussions with people in the know, a lease wouldn't be considered. The next combat aircraft we get we're going to buy and keep for a long time. Boeing offered a lease as a last ditch measure to get us into the Super, but their and our preference was always for a sale. They're now pushing the Super as part of a two-tiered capability and more importantly perhaps, as a staggered buy so you're not spending all $15.5 billion in one whack!

Cheers

Magoo

[rossfrb_1]

Originally Posted by Magoo

Yeah, true, but just from my discussions with people in the know, a lease wouldn't be considered. The next combat aircraft we get we're going to buy and keep for a long time. Boeing offered a lease as a last ditch measure to get us into the Super, but their and our preference was always for a sale. They're now pushing the Super as part of a two-tiered capability and more importantly perhaps, as a staggered buy so you're not spending all $15.5 billion in one whack!

Cheers

Magoo

Presumably one of the options that DefMin Nelson will be presented with.
If you were (are?) a betting man, what odds would you put on a RAAF super hornet acquisition?
I found this in the Oz
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...-31477,00.html
and it basically says that delivery of the first wedgetails will be delayed a little.
I only mention this since (esp if the delay lengthens even further) it may increase the pressure on an interim purchase of something other than the JSF. (Whose delivery time also appears to be slipping.)
The wedgetails were supposed to be part of the force multiplier mix that would help cover the F-111 retirement. A super hornet with some form of inherent EA (along with its existing AESA and EW capabilities) may seem attractive. Especially if you throw in a few G models.

[Aussie Digger]

Originally Posted by Magoo

Yeah, true, but just from my discussions with people in the know, a lease wouldn't be considered. The next combat aircraft we get we're going to buy and keep for a long time. Boeing offered a lease as a last ditch measure to get us into the Super, but their and our preference was always for a sale. They're now pushing the Super as part of a two-tiered capability and more importantly perhaps, as a staggered buy so you're not spending all $15.5 billion in one whack!

Cheers

Magoo

But the F-35 purchase was never going to be in one whack anyway. There's 2 phased buys planned already with the 3rd phase looking at perhaps more JSF's, but perhaps "other" capabilities such as UCAV's if they're "mature"
enough (ie: in-service and proven elsewhere)...


My bet is the first 2 (if they go ahead as planned) will replace the F-111 and half the Hornet fleet, with the remainder of the Hornets to be replaced by more JSF's or the "other" option...

[Magoo]

Originally Posted by rossfrb_1

Presumably one of the options that DefMin Nelson will be presented with.
If you were (are?) a betting man, what odds would you put on a RAAF super hornet acquisition?

I'd have a pretty decent wager on it if JSF gets pushed back past 2014. We should know more by this time next year, plenty of time to get some Supers in before the Pigs are parked.

Originally Posted by rossfrb_1

I found this in the Oz
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...-31477,00.html
and it basically says that delivery of the first wedgetails will be delayed a little.
I only mention this since (esp if the delay lengthens even further) it may increase the pressure on an interim purchase of something other than the JSF. (Whose delivery time also appears to be slipping.)
The wedgetails were supposed to be part of the force multiplier mix that would help cover the F-111 retirement. A super hornet with some form of inherent EA (along with its existing AESA and EW capabilities) may seem attractive. Especially if you throw in a few G models.

This is old news re Wedgetail - Boeing was openly talking about the end of 2008 a couple of months ago, so if it's come forward to August, then they may be getting things back on track. Wasn't The Australian talking about F-16s as an option if JSF is delayed a week or so ago??? Hmmmm

Don't get caught in the trap of comparing the mission flown by Wedgetail with that of the Growler. Wedgetail is an early warning and battlespace control aircraft which operates well back behind the first, second and thrid lines of defences. Growler is an electronic attack platform which will go 'downtown' with the strike packages and either burn out or destroy enemy radars with bombs and missiles.

All Super Hornets will soon have some kind of organic electronic attack capability - certainly by the time we got them if we went down that road. So will the JSF, so the Growler may not be necessary.

Originally Posted by Aussie Digger

But the F-35 purchase was never going to be in one whack anyway. There's 2 phased buys planned already with the 3rd phase looking at perhaps more JSF's, but perhaps "other" capabilities such as UCAV's if they're "mature"
enough (ie: in-service and proven elsewhere)...

My bet is the first 2 (if they go ahead as planned) will replace the F-111 and half the Hornet fleet, with the remainder of the Hornets to be replaced by more JSF's or the "other" option...

Phases 1 and 2 of AIR 6000 were combined in the last DCP to run concurrently, and there is a push within Defence to bring Phase 3 forward as well, so I don't think the "other" capabilities will come to fruition this time round.

Don't forget, HUGged Hornets + JASSM + JDAM + MRTT + Wedgetail will replace F-111, and then, all going well, the F-35A will replace the Hornets. It's the "going well" bit that worries me. I know it's semantics, but it's an important distinction to draw as it shows what frame of mind the pollies and senior defence people are in.

AD - EMAIL INCOMING!

Magoo

[rossfrb_1]

Originally Posted by Magoo

{snip}

Don't get caught in the trap of comparing the mission flown by Wedgetail with that of the Growler. Wedgetail is an early warning and battlespace control aircraft which operates well back behind the first, second and thrid lines of defences. Growler is an electronic attack platform which will go 'downtown' with the strike packages and either burn out or destroy enemy radars with bombs and missiles.
{snip}

What I was trying to say was that if the wedgetail project slips too much, then its force multiplier ability will be lost to the HUG hornets (which I believe have relatively modest EW and no EA) for that length of time. Thus a super hornet buy would be attractive to the RAAF (assuming deliveries could happen sooner rather than later) because an apg-79 fitted SH might not be as vulnerable as an apg-73 HUGbug where there is limited or non-existent awacs cover.
I was not suggesting that super hornets, or specifically the G version could be used as an awacs platform.
i missed the oz article re f-16s.

rb

[Magoo]

Originally Posted by rossfrb_1

What I was trying to say was that if the wedgetail project slips too much, then its force multiplier ability will be lost to the HUG hornets (which I believe have relatively modest EW and no EA) for that length of time. Thus a super hornet buy would be attractive to the RAAF (assuming deliveries could happen sooner rather than later) because an apg-79 fitted SH might not be as vulnerable as an apg-73 HUGbug where there is limited or non-existent awacs cover.I was not suggesting that super hornets, or specifically the G version could be used as an awacs platform.

Ok, gotcha, sorry for the confusion.

If Wedgetail (or tankers, or JDAM/JASSM for that matter) slips beyond late 2008, then the F-111Cs will likely be extended from 2010 to 2012. They need two years notice to wind down or retain the Pigs.

And you're right, the HUGGED Hornet doesn't have an EA capability, however its EW suite will at last be coming up for some attention in the next few months. Also very true re APG-79/-73 comparo. The Super's -79 is up for a software upgrade which will allow it to link in with its ALR-67(v)3 to direct it against radar emitters. APG-73 has no, and wont have any such capability.

As for deliveries, the usual term is about 36 months from contract signature to first delivery, so if we were to sign for the jets late next year, we may be able have a squadron in service by mid 2011. Alternatively, a government to government request for a rapid acquisition (a la C-17) may reduce that by as much as 12-18 months by taking jets from the US Navy's production allocation (which, interestingly, is eight jets ahead of schedule).

Originally Posted by rossfrb_1

i missed the oz article re f-16s.

This may sound very unprofessional of me, but you didn't miss much!

Cheers

Magoo

[Jezza]

Anyone seen these

http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/s...62-953,00.html
Secret plan to lease planes

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,20845833-2,00.html

Air combat void to cost millions


http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...5-1702,00.html
on error resume next if (plugin December 15, 2006


LABOR has labelled Australia's defence acquisition program a mess, as the Government considers spending $2 billion on aircraft as a stop-gap measure while it waits for the new, high-tech joint strike fighter (JSF).


Australia may buy a squadron of 24 F-18F Super Hornet fighter jets as back-up amid growing concerns over delays in the delivery of the JSF.
Fairfax newspapers reported that Defence Minister Brendan Nelson had confirmed that the Government was in discussions with the US government for the purchase of the Super Hornets.
The aircraft are likely to cost about $90 million each.
The move is an apparent about-face for the government, which has repeatedly said there would be no need for a stop-gap to fill the hole between the phase-out of the RAAF's fleet of aging F/A-18 Hornets and F-111s and the introduction of the JSF.

[gf0012-aust]

Originally Posted by Jezza

Anyone seen these

http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/s...62-953,00.html
Secret plan to lease planes

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,20845833-2,00.html

Air combat void to cost millions


http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...5-1702,00.html
on error resume next if (plugin December 15, 2006


LABOR has labelled Australia's defence acquisition program a mess, as the Government considers spending $2 billion on aircraft as a stop-gap measure while it waits for the new, high-tech joint strike fighter (JSF).


Australia may buy a squadron of 24 F-18F Super Hornet fighter jets as back-up amid growing concerns over delays in the delivery of the JSF.
Fairfax newspapers reported that Defence Minister Brendan Nelson had confirmed that the Government was in discussions with the US government for the purchase of the Super Hornets.
The aircraft are likely to cost about $90 million each.
The move is an apparent about-face for the government, which has repeatedly said there would be no need for a stop-gap to fill the hole between the phase-out of the RAAF's fleet of aging F/A-18 Hornets and F-111s and the introduction of the JSF.

There has always been a Plan B Interim solution. Boeing made approaches for being part of that interim solution some 8-9 months ago, so it hasn't been unexpected.

Magoo can provide more details if/when approp.

[Jezza]

Australia should buy a mix of F and G models at least they could be used
as jammers and refuel F 35's when they come.

[Aussie Digger]

Originally Posted by Jezza

Anyone seen these

http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/s...62-953,00.html
Secret plan to lease planes

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,20845833-2,00.html

Air combat void to cost millions


http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...5-1702,00.html
on error resume next if (plugin December 15, 2006


LABOR has labelled Australia's defence acquisition program a mess, as the Government considers spending $2 billion on aircraft as a stop-gap measure while it waits for the new, high-tech joint strike fighter (JSF).


Australia may buy a squadron of 24 F-18F Super Hornet fighter jets as back-up amid growing concerns over delays in the delivery of the JSF.
Fairfax newspapers reported that Defence Minister Brendan Nelson had confirmed that the Government was in discussions with the US government for the purchase of the Super Hornets.

The aircraft are likely to cost about $90 million each.
The move is an apparent about-face for the government, which has repeatedly said there would be no need for a stop-gap to fill the hole between the phase-out of the RAAF's fleet of aging F/A-18 Hornets and F-111s and the introduction of the JSF.

Ian Mcphedran is almost as "up to date" as Geoffrey Barker. He wrote, "The planes will not even be ordered until late next year - if the Howard Government proceeds to contract. The JSF, which individually costs more than $100 million, is not due to make its maiden flight from Lockheed Martin's Texas plant until late next year".

It is such a pity that THIS is what stands for Defence Journalism in this Country.

The plus side to this (apart from the boost in capability) is that Boeing is reportedly well ahead of schedule in the SH production line ad the USN is apparently willing to forgoe airframes now for RAAF to take early possession of and generate and early in-service date.

Reports a few months ago, indicated SH's could be in-service with RAAF by 2008....

I wonder if they'll operate out of Amberley?

Magoo???

[Mick73]

I would think they would lease them as they did with the 24 x F-4E's back before the F-111C's were online.
Or maybe a lease to buy arrangment. If they did want to keep them I believe the G model would be kept and the remainder sent back (nice to have an EW fast jet in the RAAF). The two seat F and G (is it?) for No1 and No 6 Sqn's and the F-35's for the other 3 Sqns and OCU. Am I right in saying we operate a 16 aircraft Hornet Sqn??
So a possible spead of:
64 F-35A's for 3,75,77 Sqn's and OCU.
24 F/A-18F/G's for 1 and 6 Sqn's
with 36 airframes for ADFRU (say 4-6) or and extra Sqn.
Which could leave us 12-14 airframes for our LPH's. Which by rights could be operated by the RAAF and be embarked when needed.

Hmmm...food for thought??