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Compare capabilities and data - LCA & JF-17

This is a discussion on Compare capabilities and data - LCA & JF-17 within the Air Force & Aviation forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; Compare Pakistan's JF-17 and Indian Air Forces LCA fighter aircraft, their capabilities, and weapon systems. http://www.geocities.com/spacetransport/pix/fc1-1.jpg Dicide, which is better! ...


View Poll Results: Which do u think is better, LCA(india) vs FC-1(pak)
LCA(india) 41 35.04%
FC-1(pak) 76 64.96%
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Old December 18th, 2003   #1
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Compare capabilities and data - LCA & JF-17

Compare Pakistan's JF-17 and Indian Air Forces LCA fighter aircraft, their capabilities, and weapon systems.


http://www.geocities.com/spacetransport/pix/fc1-1.jpg
Dicide, which is better! :pak
http://www.geocities.com/spacetransp...craft-lca.html
facts are at this site. lol http://www.geocities.com/spacetransp...td1-17_mod.jpg

Last edited by WebMaster; September 20th, 2009 at 01:26 PM.
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Old December 18th, 2003   #2
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The site has old old info about FC-1. I don't know where it got its info for LCA. Looks like an Indian website, note the wording:

FC-1 is based on the MiG-33 1.which was rejected by the Soviet Air Force.MiG-33 was a single engined version of MiG-29. Pakistan hopes to buy 150 of them to replace most of its existing air force 2.while the Chinese Air Force does not want to purchase it. Lastest reports say that FC-1 may never enter production - 3.Russia has refused to supply the 4.powerful RD-93 engine. Pakistan has given the FC-1 the 'Super-7' designation.

1. Sad attempt to portray that FC-1 is not liked by the world and "RUSSIA" rejecting their mig-33 - as if its an inferior airplane.

2. Latest reports say China WILL buy JF-17. It was decided AFTER the prototype was tested and with good results. So, another indication that website has outdated and inaccurate info.

3. Russia has refused to... what does that mean? It seems that author of this nonsense is trying to tell us that jf-17(fc1) is so inferior that countries don't even want to supply engines for it. Which brings us to the 4th point I bolded:

4. Again, russia refused and then trying to show us how big and powerful was the engine that russia refused-further emphasising that fc1 is a failure without such a powerful engine which russia "refused."

Very sad and ignorant stuff coming from an Indian website which does not surprise me.

We have seen how long LCA has been on the table and how many 'test' flights it flew - yet still another decade away from being inducted into IAF. Failures of LCA are no secret. It may be a good jet but its long from becoming part of IAF which makes it very irrelevant to compare it to JF-17 which is to enter service in about 3-4 years.


Also, your post shows Indian flag then a gun shooting at pakistani flag. If you come here with that kind of sick and defaming attitude, the posts will be locked/deleted and you will be thrown out. Show some respect to get some respect-edit your post.

I will let others do the technical comparing with LATEST facts from non partial websites. Not some geocities hosted 5 year old full of indian ego website.
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Old December 18th, 2003   #3
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Cool Admin. Keep this forum clean.

Thanku
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Old December 18th, 2003   #4
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Re: LCA! Lets judge it!!!

Lets let both see combat... or atleast be inducted.... then we'll know how capable they are.
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Old December 18th, 2003   #5
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i still see not point in the fc-1. If its defence've porposes its good. but if pak is planing to use it as a offensive weapon it will suck. sending the fc-1 against another country is sucide. Defensive proposes its good. And both need to show their advantages in battle STILL! The fc-1 is just not china's best. and china is good at avaiton and getting better. and one more thing... i heard pakistan has a air-air missile with bvr, is it true? guys visit this forum ok you'll like it. but u have to make a account!
http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/211833
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Old December 18th, 2003   #6
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Re: LCA! Lets judge it!!!

Lets compare it. Thunder vs Tejas.

Range,

According to some ppl, LCAs range is less then JF-17. The Indian sources are quite about its ferry range. Jf-17 has a range of 3000 kms but its engine is also unconfirmed.

Engine Characteristics,

TWR of JF-17 is 95:100 and that oif LCA is 88:100. Fighter-planes.com says that even the Kaveri engines will not give enough TWR.

About thrust, LCA = 18,000 lbs and JF-17 = 18,300 lbs.

LCA has the speed advantage coz it uses lead composite materials over its surface whereas JF-17 uses aluminium.

Ceiling,

LCA = 16,400 m
JF-17 = 16,500 m

Payload,

LCA = 4000 kg
JF-17 = 3,600 (or 3,800) lbs.

Plzzz correct me if I m wrong somewhere.
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Old December 19th, 2003   #7
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Re: LCA! Lets judge it!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oqaab
Lets compare it. Thunder vs Tejas.

Range,

According to some ppl, LCAs range is less then JF-17. The Indian sources are quite about its ferry range. Jf-17 has a range of 3000 kms but its engine is also unconfirmed.

Engine Characteristics,

TWR of JF-17 is 95:100 and that oif LCA is 88:100. Fighter-planes.com says that even the Kaveri engines will not give enough TWR.

About thrust, LCA = 18,000 lbs and JF-17 = 18,300 lbs.

LCA has the speed advantage coz it uses lead composite materials over its surface whereas JF-17 uses aluminium.

Ceiling,

LCA = 16,400 m
JF-17 = 16,500 m

Payload,

LCA = 4000 kg
JF-17 = 3,600 (or 3,800) lbs.

Plzzz correct me if I m wrong somewhere.
what u need to do is compare missle like astra and bvr for the lca and also understand the cost of the cheap lca as well as the inflight refueler! and the radar ohh and the fact its small, light and larger payload as well as its made out of lead so it won't show on radar that much! and the air inlets are really small on the lca. lca is just going to rule if we get isrealy radar, or do we have it. and ewacs. and the lca will also be a suport fighter. inducted in the navy. COMPLETELY ORGINAL!!!!!!!!!!!
crap i almost forgot about the bhromos its gonna carry and the phlcon. hmmmmm mabe thats why india wants the lca. and than the lca is gonna have a better engine, hopefully.

and than we ave the fbw which has some american tech in it. srry but fbw in lca iz better my friend.
the lca will take a long time because its india's first supersonic jet ever.
fc-1 will replace the migs and most chinese admit that the fc-1 sucks compared to the lca. ask them, they know china isn't gonna put anything good in it. the lca will be a cheap small jsf. lca will have better stealth techology including flares and such as well as BVR witch is very important. Dont judge a book by its cover!
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Old December 19th, 2003   #8
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In certain aspects the LCA is inferior to the JF-17 such as range. Also the Jf-17 has more export potential meaning more money 4 pakistan off the bargain and we dont have 2 neccecarily buy the JF-17.

One more thing, The JF-17 can be bought in large enuff numbers and it is as the soviets said "numbers have their own qualities".
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Old December 19th, 2003   #9
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One more thing, The JF-17 can be bought in large enuff numbers and it is as the soviets said "numbers have their own qualities".
I'd have to disagree with this. Even the VP of Sukhoi has made comment on the fact that the old paradigms are gone.

The use of volume to rush or saturate an enemy will work on a less sophisticated military power.

I would not like to be a country like China, and assume that 4000 jet fighters will carry the air battle for me.

There is overwhelming data on how a professional force will carry and win against a force less competent and relying on numerical superiority.

China would make an average military power feel inadequate, but against even the Germans, French and English I suspect that they would be contained. (without resorting to nukes)

Field armies are just juicy targets for FAE's. In fact there are reports criculating that 1 american FAE wiped out a Republican Guard division and its armoured brigade that was at target zero.

You don't defeat another airforce with pilots, you use anti-air systems. - cheaper to build, no training, faster than the fighter and capable of sending enemy aircraft into a killing box for other systems to do their work.
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Old December 19th, 2003   #10
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Re: Compare capabilities and data - LCA & JF-17

Quote:
i still see not point in the fc-1. If its defence've porposes its good. but if pak is planing to use it as a offensive weapon it will suck. sending the fc-1 against another country is sucide. Defensive proposes its good. And both need to show their advantages in battle STILL! The fc-1 is just not china's best. and china is good at avaiton and getting better. and one more thing... i heard pakistan has a air-air missile with bvr, is it true? guys visit this forum ok you'll like it. but u have to make a account!
http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/211833
Pakistan needs the JF-17 badly.

Pakistan air forces primary mission has always been air DEFENCE, not offence. So in that respect the JF-17 is great. And Pakistan's current fleet is a whole bunch of old fighters, which need to be replaced. No high tech fighters are available to Pakistan, and they don't want to replace old Mirages/F-7s with MORE Mirages and F-7s... so the JF-17 is the best fighter available to Pakistan right now

And since Pakistan will get ToT, it is a good deal indeed.
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Old December 19th, 2003   #11
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Re: LCA! Lets judge it!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jatt2ooo
what u need to do is compare missle like astra and bvr for the lca and also understand the cost of the cheap lca as well as the inflight refueler! and the radar ohh and the fact its small, light and larger payload as well as its made out of lead so it won't show on radar that much! and the air inlets are really small on the lca. lca is just going to rule if we get isrealy radar, or do we have it. and ewacs. and the lca will also be a suport fighter. inducted in the navy. COMPLETELY ORGINAL!!!!!!!!!!!
crap i almost forgot about the bhromos its gonna carry and the phlcon. hmmmmm mabe thats why india wants the lca. and than the lca is gonna have a better engine, hopefully.

and than we ave the fbw which has some american tech in it. srry but fbw in lca iz better my friend.
the lca will take a long time because its india's first supersonic jet ever.
fc-1 will replace the migs and most chinese admit that the fc-1 sucks compared to the lca. ask them, they know china isn't gonna put anything good in it. the lca will be a cheap small jsf. lca will have better stealth techology including flares and such as well as BVR witch is very important. Dont judge a book by its cover!
BVR missiles ... ok,

Astra = 80 km range
SD-10 = ~80 km range
And this is not a big difference.

Unit cost,
JF-17 = 15 million USD
LCA = 21 million USD
LCA is more costly. Also JF-17 will cost 10 million to Pakistan.

Other facts, if it uses lead composite materials, it doesnt mean that the RCS is reduced. It was just to increase speed. And JF-17 will also have inflight refueling probe and deck arrester hook installed. The radar is unconfirmed, PAF is trying to get a better radar for JF-17 then Griffo S-7. And why not compare its maneuverbility with JF-17 ??? Even PAF is worried about the maneuverbility of its delta winged Mirages.

Another thing, why arent u giving solid reasons about JF-17s bad performance ?? Plzzz dont say that ask Chinese or anyone. Just prove it. LCA could be a third generation JSF without stealth. And as I said before, JF-17 will use SD-10 and this missile is superior to R-77 which ur Su-30MKI uses.
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Old December 19th, 2003   #12
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Re: Compare capabilities and data - LCA & JF-17

Light Combat Aircraft (LCA)

The Indian Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) is the world's smallest, light weight, multi-role combat aircraft designed to meet the requirements of Indian Air Force as its frontline multi-mission single-seat tactical aircraft to replace the MiG-21 series of aircraft. The delta wing configuration , with no tailplanes or foreplanes, features a single vertical fin. The LCA is constructed of aluminium-lithium alloys, carbon-fibre composites, and titanium. LCA integrates modern design concepts and the state-of-art technologies such as relaxed static stability, flyby-wire Flight Control System, Advanced Digital Cockpit, Multi-Mode Radar, Integrated Digital Avionics System, Advanced Composite Material Structures and a Flat Rated Engine.

The LCA design has been configured to match the demands of modern combat scenario such as speed, acceleration, maneuverability and agility. Short takeoff and landing, excellent flight performance, safety, reliability and maintainability, are salient features of LCA design. The LCA integrates modern design concepts like static instability, digital fly-by-wire flight control system, integrated avionics, glass cockpit, primary composite structure, multi-mode radar, microprocessor based utility and brake management systems.
The avionics system enhances the role of Light Combat Aircraft as an effective weapon platform. The glass cockpit and hands on throttle and stick (HOTAS) controls reduce pilot workload. Accurate navigation and weapon aiming information on the head up display helps the pilot achieve his mission effectively. The multifunction displays provide information on engine, hydraulics, electrical, flight control and environmental control system on a need-to-know basis along with basic flight and tactical information. Dual redundant display processors (DP) generate computer-generated imagery on these displays. The pilot interacts with the complex avionics systems through a simple multifunction keyboard, and function and sensor selection panels. A state-of-the-art multi-mode radar (MMR), laser designator pod (LDP), forward looking infra-red (FLIR) and other opto-electronic sensors provide accurate target information to enhance kill probabilities. A ring laser gyro (RLG)-based inertial navigation system (INS), provides accurate navigation guidance to the pilot. An advanced electronic warfare (EW) suite enhances the aircraft survivability during deep penetration and combat. Secure and jam-resistant communication systems, such as IFF, VHF/UHF and air-to-air/air-to-ground data link are provided as a part of the avionics suite. All these systems are integrated on three 1553B buses by a centralised 32-bit mission computer (MC) with high throughput which performs weapon computations and flight management, and reconfiguration/redundancy management. Reversionary mission functions are provided by a control and coding unit (CCU). Most of these subsystems have been developed indigenously.

The digital FBW system of the LCA is built around a quadruplex redundant architecture to give it a fail op-fail op-fail safe capability. It employs a powerful digital flight control computer (DFCC) comprising four computing channels, each powered by an independent power supply and all housed in a single line replaceable unit (LRU). The system is designed to meet a probability of loss of control of better than 1x10-7 per flight hour. The DFCC channels are built around 32-bit microprocessors and use a safe subset of Ada language for the implementation of software. The DFCC receives signals from quad rate, acceleration sensors, pilot control stick, rudder pedal, triplex air data system, dual air flow angle sensors, etc. The DFCC channels excite and control the elevon, rudder and leading edge slat hydraulic actuators. The computer interfaces with pilot display elements like multifunction displays through MIL-STD-1553B avionics bus and RS 422 serial link. The digital FBW system of the LCA is built around a quadruplex redundant architecture to give it a fail op-fail op-fail safe capability. It employs a powerful digital flight control computer (DFCC) comprising four computing channels, each powered by an independent power supply and all housed in a single line replaceable unit (LRU). The system is designed to meet a probability of loss of control of better than 1x107 per flight hour. The DFCC channels are built around 32-bit microprocessors and use a safe subset of Ada language for the implementation of software. The DFCC receives signals from quad rate, acceleration sensors, pilot control stick, rudder pedal, triplex air data system, dual air flow angle sensors, etc. The DFCC channels excite and control the elevon, rudder and leading edge slat hydraulic actuators. The computer interfaces with pilot display elements like multifunction displays through MIL-STD-1553B avionics bus and RS 422 serial link.

Multi-mode radar (MMR), the primary mission sensor of the LCA in its air defence role, will be a key determinant of the operational effectiveness of the fighter. This is an X-band, pulse Doppler radar with air-to-air, air-to-ground and air-to-sea modes. Its track-while-scan capability caters to radar functions under multiple target environment. The antenna is a light weight (<5 kg), low profile slotted waveguide array with a multilayer feed network for broad band operation. The salient technical features are: two plane monopulse signals, low side lobe levels and integrated IFF, and GUARD and BITE channels. The heart of MMR is the signal processor, which is built around VLSI-ASICs and i960 processors to meet the functional needs of MMR in different modes of its operation. Its role is to process the radar receiver output, detect and locate targets, create ground map, and provide contour map when selected. Post-detection processor resolves range and Doppler ambiguities and forms plots for subsequent data processor. The special feature of signal processor is its real-time configurability to adapt to requirements depending on selected mode of operation.


Seven weapon stations provided on LCA offer flexibility in the choice of weapons LCA can carry in various mission roles. Provision of drop tanks and inflight refueling probe ensure extended range and flight endurance of demanding missions. Provisions for the growth of hardware and software in the avionics and flight control system, available in LCA, ensure to maintain its effectiveness and advantages as a frontline fighter throughout its service life. For maintenance the aircraft has more than five hundred Line Replaceable Units (LRSs), each tested for performance and capability to meet the severe operational conditions to be encountered.

Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) is the Principal Partner in the design and fabrication of LCA and its integration leading to flight testing. The LCA has been designed and developed by a consortium of five aircraft research, design, production and product support organizations pooled by the Bangalore-based Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), under Department of Defense Research and Development Organization (DRDO). Various international aircraft and system manufacturers are also participating in the program with supply of specific equipment, design consultancy and support. For example, GE Aircraft Engines provides the propulsion.

The first prototype of LCA rolled out on 17 November 1995. Two aircraft technology demonstrators are powered by single GE F404/F2J3 augmented turbofan engines. Regular flights with the state-of-the-art "Kaveri" engine, being developed by the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) in Bangalore, are planned by 2002, although by mid-1999 the Kaveri engine had yet to achieve the required thrust-to-weight ratio.

The LCA is India's second attempt at an indigenous jet fighter design, following the somewhat unsatisfactory HF-24 Marut Ground Attack Fighter built in limited numbers by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited in the 1950s. Conceived in 1983, the LCA will serve as the Indian air force's frontline tactical plane through the year 2020. The LCA will go into service in the 2003-2005 timeframe.
Following India's nuclear weapons tests in early 1998, the United States placed an embargo on the sale of General Electric 404 jet engines which are to power the LCA. The US also denied the fly-by-wire system for the aircraft sold by the US firm Lockheed-Martin. As of June 1998 the first flight of the LCA had been delayed due to systems integration tests. The first flight awaits completion of the Digital Flight Control Systems, being developed by the Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADE).


Specifications
Wing Span 8.20 m
Length 13.20 m
Empty Weight 5500 kg
Engine Prototype - GE F404-F2J3 turbofan rated at 18,097 lbst
Production - Kaveri GTX-35VS turbofan rated at 20,200 lbst
Fuel Capacity Internal fuel capacity - 3000 liters
Centerline and the two-inner hardpoints under each wing can carry five 800 liters fuel tanks
also has an in-flight refuelling probe
Maximum Range ?
Maximum Speed Mach 1.7
Service Ceiling 50,000 feet.
G Limits +9/-3.5
Armament internally mounted GSh-23mm twin barrel gun with 220 rounds of ammunition
Seven external hardpoints, can carry air-to-air missiles, air-to-surface missiles, anti-ship missiles, rocket launchers and ECM pods

Maximum External Stores Load 4000kg (8818 lbs.)
Self Defence RWR system, jammer and chaff & flare dispensers.
whow this is amazing. do i trust my source, yes i do! lca is a fourth generation jsf . Its cheap and stealthy. the only thing not stealthy about it is the weapons bay are located out side.
this is the thing. the lca is gonna have far better isrealy radar and armament aswell as american fbw . just because the project is daleyed dont mean squot. the lca will also be a navel virsion.

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Old December 19th, 2003   #13
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Re: Compare capabilities and data - LCA & JF-17

Jatt2ooo, please post a link/source of your information.
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Old December 20th, 2003   #14
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Re: Compare capabilities and data - LCA & JF-17

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Jatt2ooo, please post a link/source of your information.
i dont know the exact url, but it was fas.
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/lca.htm
are u happy!
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Old December 20th, 2003   #15
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The URL info was requested for users/members, not for my self. Any info you post make sure it has its source listed.
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