Combat Range-American weakness?

[startacek1]

I wanted to start this out with a general question: The newesr planes: FA 22 and 35 seem stronger in almsot all stats, but how do their combat ranges stand out compared to other modern planes?

Thank you for your time,

 

[Human Bass]

The F-22 has plenty of range for a fighter, since internal weapons give a it a very low drag and great engines that allow it mach 1.5 without supercruise. The F-35 not so much, but its quite a lame fat plane that relies on stealth to no be a total sitting duck IMO

 

[Totoro]

Actually f-35 is the one with longer legs. They have very similar fuel loads but with f-35's wings and engines being optimized for lower speeds and greater fuel efficiency, that plane should have a solid lead on raptor when range is concerned.

 

[Feanor]

Has either one released official figures for range?

 

[ROCK45]

Range

The F-35 carries more fuel then a F-15C and only has a single engine so it won't be a short range platform.

 

[startacek1]

American, Russian, and Chinese Aircraft

I did a quick run down of American, Russian, and Chinese aircraft from Wikipidiea, I didn't include European planes yet( including the EuroFighter')

But this is what I found:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_United_States_military_aircraft

American fighters( roughly-fighters+/- other roles)

Specifications (F-35 Lightning II)
Currently in preproduction and testing none built yet
Maximum speed: Mach 1.6+[78] (1,200 mph, 1,931 km/h)
Range: A: 1,200 nmi; B: 900 nmi; C: 1400 nmi[78] (A: 2,200 km; B: 1,667 km; C: 2,593 km) on internal fuel
Combat radius: 600 nmi (690 mi, 1,110 km)
Rate of climb: classified (not publicly available)

Specifications (F-22 Raptor)
In Service: 119 (183 planned)
Maximum speed:
At altitude: Mach 2.25 (1,500 mph, 2,414 km/h)[85]
Supercruise: Mach 1.82 (1,220 mph, 1,963 km/h)[85]
Range: 1,600 nmi (1,840 mi, 2,960 km) with 2 external fuel tanks
Combat radius: 410 nmi[82] (471 mi, 759 km)
Ferry range: 2,000 mi (1,738 nmi, 3,219 km)
Service ceiling 65,000 ft (19,812 m)

Specifications (F-15E)
223 To be possibly supplemented/replaced by the FB-22
Maximum speed: Mach 2.5+ (1,650+ mph, 2,660+ km/h)
Ferry range: 2,400 mi (2,100 nmi, 3,900 km) with conformal fuel tank and three external fuel tanks
Service ceiling 60,000 ft (18,200 m)
Rate of climb: 50,000+ ft/min (254+ m/s)

Specifications (F-15C Eagle)
337 In Service
Maximum speed:
High altitude: Mach 2.5+ (1,650 mph, 2,660 km/h)
Low altitude: Mach 1.2 (900 mph, 1,450 km/h)
Combat radius: 1,061 nmi (1,222 mi, 1,967 km) for interdiction mission
Ferry range: 3,450 mi (3,000 nmi, 5,550 km) with external conformal fuel tanks
Service ceiling 65,000 ft (20,000 m)
Rate of climb: >50,000 ft/min (254 m/s)

F-16C Block 30)
1084 in service To be replaced by F-35A ( Listed this because so many in service)
Maximum speed:
At sea level: Mach 1.2 (915 mph, 1,460 km/h)
At altitude: Mach 2+ (1,500 mph, 2,414 km/h)
Combat radius: 340 NM (295 mi, 550 km) on a hi-lo-hi mission with six 1,000 lb (450 kg) bombs
Ferry range: >2,100 NM (2,420 NM, 3,900 km)
Service ceiling >50,000 ft (15,239 m)
Rate of climb: 50,000 ft/min (254 m/s)



American Bombers:

(B-1B)
64 In Service
Maximum speed: Mach 1.25 (950 mph, 1,529 km/h) at altitude (Mach 0.92, 700 mph, 1,130 km/h at low level)
Range: 6,478 nmi (7,456 mi, 11,998 km)
Combat radius: 2,993 nmi (3,445 mi, 5,543 km)
Service ceiling 60,000 ft (18,000 m)

B-2A Block 30)
20 In Service
Maximum speed: 410 knots (760 km/h, 470 mph)
Range: 5,600 nm (10,400 km, 6,400 mi)
Service ceiling 50,000 ft (15,000 m)

B-52H)
94 In Service
Maximum speed: 560 kt (650 mph, 1,000 km/h [81])
Combat radius: 4,480 mi (3,890 NM, 7,210 km)
Ferry range: 10,145 mi (8,764 nm, 16,232 km)
Service ceiling 50,000 ft[81] (15,000 m[81])
Rate of climb: 6,270 ft/min.[77] (31.85 m/s)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Air_Force#Aircraft_inventory
Russian Fighters:

Specifications (Su-27)
280-350 in service
Maximum speed: Mach 2.35 (2,500 km/h, 1,550 mph) at altitude
Range: 1,340 km combat mission at sea level / 3,530 km combat mission at high altitude (800 mi at sea level / 2070 mi at high altitude)
Service ceiling 18,500 m (60,700 ft)
Rate of climb: 325 m/s (64,000 ft/min)

(Su-27PU/Su-30)
13 or more
Maximum speed: Mach 2.0 (2,120 km/h, 1,320 mph)
Range: 3,000 km (1,620 nmi) at altitude
Service ceiling 17,300 m (56,800 ft)
Rate of climb: 230 m/s (45,275 ft/min)

Su-33
23 or more?
Maximum speed: Mach 2.17 (2,300 km/h, 1,430 mph) at 10,000 m (33,000 ft) altitude
Stall speed: 240 km/h (150 mp/h)
Range: 3,000 km (1,860 mi
Maximum turn: +8 g (+78 m/s²)
Landing speed: 235-250 km/h (145-155 mph))
Service ceiling 17,000 m (55,800 ft)
Rate of climb: 325 m/s (64,350 ft/min)

Su-35)
5-15 in service
Maximum speed: Mach 2.25[11] (2,700 km/h,[14] 1,680 mph) at altitude
Range: 3,600 km (1,940 nmi) ; (1,580 km, 850 nmi near ground level)
Ferry range: 4,500 km (2,430 nmi) with external fuel tanks
Service ceiling 18,000 m (59,100 ft)
Rate of climb: >280 m/s (>55,100 ft/min)

Mikoyan MiG-29
254-600 in service with reserves in at least the highest count
Maximum speed: Mach 2.4 - 2,445 km/h (1,518 mph)
Range: 700 km combat, 2,900 km ferry (430 mi / 1,800 mi)
Service ceiling 18,013 m / 59 060 ft (59,100 ft)
Rate of climb: initial 330 m/s average 109 m/s 0-6000 m [38] (65,000 ft/min)

Sukhoi PAK FA or T-50
1-2 built but is maybe said to be in league of F22 when production starts in 2012?
Maximum speed: Mach 2+ at altitude (2,100+ km/h, 1,300+ mph)
g-limits: 9 to 10 g)
Cruise speed: 1,300 km/h (807.8 mph)
Ferry range: 4,000 to 5,500 km (2,485 to 3,418 mi)
Service ceiling 20,000 m (65,617 ft)
Rate of climb: 350 m/s (68,898 ft/min)

MiG-31) Foxhound
150-350 with reserves in highest count
Maximum speed:
High altitude: Mach 2.83 (3,000 km/h, 1,860 mph)
Low altitude: Mach 1.2 (1,500 km/h, 930 mph)
Combat radius: 720 km at Mach 2.35 (450 mi)
Ferry range: 3,300 km (2,050 mi)
Service ceiling 20,600 m (67,600 ft)
Rate of climb: 208 m/s (41,000 ft/min)


Russian Bombers:

Sukhoi Su-24 Fencer Su-24MK)
450 with modernization plans to reach these specs:
Maximum speed: 1,315 km/h (710 knots, 815 mph, Mach 1.07) at sea level; Mach 1.35 at high altitude
Range: 615 km in a lo-lo-lo attack mission with 3000 kg (6,615 lb) ordnance and external tanks (330 nm, 380 mi)
Ferry range: 2775 km (1,500 nm, 1,725 mi)
Service ceiling 11000 m (36,090 ft)
Rate of climb: 150 m/s (29,530 ft/min)

Sukhoi Su-25 Frogfoot Su-25TM specs:
240 with modernization planed for Su-25 MZ levels
Maximum speed: 950 km/h (590 mph, Mach 0.82)
Combat radius: 375 km (235 mi)
Ferry range: 2,500 km (1,553 mi)
Service ceiling 10,000 m (22,200 ft)
Rate of climb: 58 m/s (11,400 ft/min)

Sukhoi Su-34 Fullback
10 now 60 by 2012
Maximum speed:
High altitude: Mach 1.8 (1,900 km/h, 1,180 mph)
Low altitude: Mach 1.2 (1,400 km/h, 870 mph) at sea level
Combat radius: 1,100 km (680 mi)
Ferry range: 4,000 km (2,490 mi)
Service ceiling 15,000 m (49,200 ft)

Tupolev Tu-22M Backfire
124
Maximum speed: Mach 2.3 (2,327 km/h,)
Range: 7000 km (4971 mi)
Combat radius: 2410 km (1500 mi)
Service ceiling 13,300 m (40,635 ft)
Rate of climb: 15m/s (91ft/s)

Tupolev Tu-95 Bear
64 modernization planned
Maximum speed: 920 km/h (510 knots, 575 mph)
Range: 15,000 km (8,100 nm, 9,400 mi) !!!
Service ceiling 12,000 m (39,000 ft)
Rate of climb: 10 m/s (2,000 ft/min)

Tupolev Tu-160 Blackjack
16 with modernization planned
Maximum speed: Mach 2.05[18] (2,220 km/h, 1,380 mph, 1,200 knots) at high altitude
Range: 17,400 km (9,400 nm, 10,800 mi) unrefueled
Combat radius: 10,500 km (5,670 NM, 6,500 mi)
Service ceiling 15,000 m (49,200 ft)
Rate of climb: 70 m/s (13,860 ft/min)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People's_Liberation_Army_Air_Force#Active_Aircraft_inventory
Chinese Fighters

Shenyang J-11
100 made and 200 licensed
Maximum speed: Mach 2.35 (2,500 km/h, 1,600 mph)
Range: 3,720 km (2,010 nm, 2,310 mi)
Combat radius: 2,000 km ()
Service ceiling 19,000 m (62,000 ft)
Rate of climb: >305 m/s (60,000 ft/min)

Chengdu J-10 Vanguard
100 in service 300 possible
Specifications (estimated)
Maximum speed: Mach 2.2 at altitude[6], Mach 1.2 at sea level[3]
g-limits: +9/-3 g (+88/-29 m/s², +290/-97 ft/s²[3])
Combat radius: 1,800 km[24] (1,118 mi
Maximum range (without refueling): 3,000 km (1,864 mi[6])
Service ceiling 20,000 m (65,600 ft[3])

Chengdu JF-17 Thunder
10
Maximum speed: Mach 1.8 (1,120 mph)
Combat radius: 1,352 km (890 nmi, 1,025 mi)
Ferry range: 3,500 km[41] (2,100 mi)
Service ceiling 17,000+ m[42] (55,000 ft)

Shenyang J-8II Finback
300+
Never exceed speed: Mach 2.2 limited
Maximum speed: Greater than Mach > 2.4+ (est.) (2339 kph/1262 knot)
Range: 2,800 km (1,740 mi)
Combat radius: 1,300 km (808 mi)
Service ceiling 20,500 m (67,256 ft)
Rate of climb: 200 m/s 12,200 m/min (39,400 ft/min)

Chengdu J-7
500+ Many around world
Maximum speed: Mach 2.1 (2,175 km/h) (1,350 mph)
Combat range: 850 km (528 miles)
Ferry range: 2,200 km (1,380 miles)
Service ceiling 18,800 m (61,700 ft)
Rate of climb: 11,700 meters/min (38,400 ft/min)

Has number of each of russian:
Sukhoi Su-30 Flanker-C 100
Sukhoi Su-27 Flanker 75
Sukhoi Su-33 Flanker-D Unknown


Bombers:

Xian JH-7 Flounder
103+
Maximum speed: Mach 1.75 (1,808 km/h, 1,122 mph)
Combat radius: 1,759 km (890 nm, 1,093 mi)
Ferry range: 3,700 km (1,970 nm, 2,299 mi)
Service ceiling 16,000 m (51,180 ft)

Xian H-6
120
Maximum speed: 1,050 km/h (567 knots, 656 mph)
Cruise speed: Mach 0.75 (768 km/h, 477 mph)
Range: 6,000 km (3,200 nm, 3,700 mi)
Combat radius: 1,800 km (970 nm, 1,100 mi)
Service ceiling 12,800 m (42,000 ft)


Ground Attack

Nanchang Q-5 Fantan
400+
Maximum speed: Mach 1.8+ (653 knots, 752 mph)
Range: 2,000 km (1,100 NM, 1,200 mi (1,900 km))
Combat radius:
On lo-lo-lo mission: 400 km (220 NM, 250 mi) with maximum payload
On hi-lo-hi mission: 600 km (320 NM, 370 mi (600 km))
Service ceiling 16,500 m (54,133.9 ft)
Rate of climb: 103 m/s (20,300 ft/min)


multi-purpose stealth attack UCAV
WZ-2000
unknown number
Maximum speed: 800 km/h (432 knots, 497 mph)
Range: 2,400 km (1,300 nm, 1,490 mi)
Combat radius: 800 km ()
Service ceiling 18,000m (59,000 ft)
Endurance: 3 hours

Reported designs; many 5th Generation Stealth Designs:
Shenyang J-XX
1Built
To be alkie F22 and 35 and all current top planes

Chengdu Super-10
80-100 buily by Start of 2008
Maximum speed: Mach 2.2 at altitude[6], Mach 1.2 at sea level[3]
g-limits: +9/-3 g (+88/-29 m/s², +290/-97 ft/s²[3])
Combat radius: 1,800 km[24] (1,118 mi
Maximum range (without refueling): 3,000 km (1,864 mi[6])
Service ceiling 20,000 m (65,600 ft[3])

Chengdu J-13
Shenyang J-14
Each 5th Generation Stealth early design or little listed on page.

Shenyang J-11C
100 maybe
Maximum speed: Mach 2.35 (2,500 km/h, 1,600 mph)
Range: 3,720 km (2,010 nm, 2,310 mi)
Combat radius: 2,000 km ()
Service ceiling 19,000 m (62,000 ft)
Rate of climb: >305 m/s (60,000 ft/min)
Carrier design

Chengdu J-10
80-100 Start of year 2008
Maximum speed: Mach 2.2 at altitude[6], Mach 1.2 at sea level[3]
g-limits: +9/-3 g (+88/-29 m/s², +290/-97 ft/s²[3])
Combat radius: 1,800 km[24] (1,118 mi
Maximum range (without refueling): 3,000 km (1,864 mi[6])
Service ceiling 20,000 m (65,600 ft[3])
Carrier Design

Xian H-8
1 prototype
Speculative Stealth, strategic, heavy bomber already developed and built
Little else on page


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_United_States_military_aircraft
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Air_Force#Aircraft_inventory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People's_Liberation_Army_Air_Force#Active_Aircraft_inventory

I didn't include much detail beyond some flight specs. It is just a Very Rough result of reading Wikipidia pages.

I know a huge amount of variables remain beyond what I just listed here but this is just to list the flight ranges( with and without combat ranges listed) and flight speeds and similiar data.

I may also look for European and other aircraft data too.

 

[rjmaz1]

Combat range of the F-35 and F-22 are greater than the aircraft they are replacing. For the roles that they were designed to perform their range is more than good enough.

However hindsite is a wonderful thing. The F-22 was designed to counter the latest soviet threat that never really evolved. For the fighter role its speed/range advantage is better than any other fighter. At moderate supersonic speeds its range is possibly double or even tripple that of any other fighter. However the fighter only role then added precision strike capabilities, for strike mission you want as much range as possible. So in hindsight the F-22 could ideally have been fattened up, this would have sacrificed agility and speed for a big range increase for the potential long range strike mission. As a result the F-22 is being purchased in small numbers.

The F-35 is all about effeciency at the majority of mission profiles. Its loiter and range for providing close air support at medium altitude will be extremely impressive. It is indeed a compromise and a good one at that. The F-35's attributes that some people think are flaws are what help make the F-35 such an excellent platform where it really counts. As the F-35 didn't aim for being the fastest fighter on the market it decided to settle for third place. Some (stupid) people then call the F-35 slow when by settling for third place its gained increased internal fuel volume for increased range. It then went with a single engine that is now operating at its most effecient power setting when the aircraft is in the most aerodynamic effecient speed. Slow and steady wins the race.

 

[F-15 Eagle]

Some (stupid) people then call the F-35 slow when by settling for third place its gained increased internal fuel volume for increased range. It then went with a single engine that is now operating at its most effecient power setting when the aircraft is in the most aerodynamic effecient speed. Slow and steady wins the race.

Yeah and even when in full after burner going supersonic the F-35 is faster than any other 3rd, 4th or 4.5th generation fighter in terms of supersonic speed. No fighter has ever gone past 1200mph in combat and thats what the F-35 is designed to go for a short time making it just as fast as any other fighter but with better range and payload.

 

[Totoro]

F-35 will have longer legs than f-16 (not to mention a-10 or harrier) but f-22 will carry more or less the same amount of fuel as f-15. Internal fuel of f-22 is 20600 lbs, f15 is some 22200 lbs with CFTs. (without them it should be some 13000 lbs). With all available drop tanks, meaning 4 600 gallon ones on f-22, raptor will have max load of some 36700 lbs, while F-15 with 3 600 gallon tanks will have 36200 lbs. Naturally, fuel load doesn't necessarily translate into range, as there's engine fuel consumption, drag and weight to be taken into account, among other things. Anyway, to cut the story short, i'd put my money on raptor's max range not really being significantly longer than eagle's, if at all. Which is fine as eagle already has monster range, longer than su-27.

 

[F-15 Eagle]

F-35 will have longer legs than f-16 (not to mention a-10 or harrier) but f-22 will carry more or less the same amount of fuel as f-15. Internal fuel of f-22 is 20600 lbs, f15 is some 22200 lbs with CFTs. (without them it should be some 13000 lbs). With all available drop tanks, meaning 4 600 gallon ones on f-22, raptor will have max load of some 36700 lbs, while F-15 with 3 600 gallon tanks will have 36200 lbs. Naturally, fuel load doesn't necessarily translate into range, as there's engine fuel consumption, drag and weight to be taken into account, among other things. Anyway, to cut the story short, i'd put my money on raptor's max range not really being significantly longer than eagle's, if at all. Which is fine as eagle already has monster range, longer than su-27.

Yeah but with all of those fuel tanks then you can't carry any weapons...none at all. The F-35 has more internal fuel than the F-15.

 

[Marc 1]

Yeah and even when in full after burner going supersonic the F-35 is faster than any other 3rd, 4th or 4.5th generation fighter in terms of supersonic speed. No fighter has ever gone past 1200mph in combat and thats what the F-35 is designed to go for a short time making it just as fast as any other fighter but with better range and payload.

Faster? Are you sure about that? The figures I've seen show only sub Mach 2 - About the same as the F/A 18's. I think you'll find that there are a fair few 3rd, 4th and 4.5 gen aircraft faster. The only real advantage is that with its internal carriage of smaller loads the F35 won't be Mach constrained by payload. BUT it's not about top speed - far too wasteful of fuel - its true advantages lie in its stealth and electronic systems.

 

[Marc 1]

The F-22 has plenty of range for a fighter, since internal weapons give a it a very low drag and great engines that allow it mach 1.5 without supercruise. The F-35 not so much, but its quite a lame fat plane that relies on stealth to no be a total sitting duck IMO

I think you'll find that 'supercruise' is the ability to sustain speeds of over Mach 1 without using afterburner. Yes the F22 can supercruise, but aparently not for long (airframe issues). The F35 may not be the Ferrari that the F22 was designed to be, but its a long way from being a lame sitting duck.

 

[F-15 Eagle]

Faster? Are you sure about that? The figures I've seen show only sub Mach 2 - About the same as the F/A 18's. I think you'll find that there are a fair few 3rd, 4th and 4.5 gen aircraft faster. The only real advantage is that with its internal carriage of smaller loads the F35 won't be Mach constrained by payload. BUT it's not about top speed - far too wasteful of fuel - its true advantages lie in its stealth and electronic systems.

The general public fails to realize that combat aircraft rarely even hit supersonic speeds let alone go near their mach 2+ speeds. They have this over-inflated impression of the operating speeds of these aircraft when they have to keep the engines at idle most of the time to get half decent ranged. The F-15 has never gone past Mach 1.6 in combat, its too much drag with all of its weapons and a total waist of fuel.

 

[Marc 1]

The general public fails to realize that combat aircraft rarely even hit supersonic speeds let alone go near their mach 2+ speeds. They have this over-inflated impression of the operating speeds of these aircraft when they have to keep the engines at idle most of the time to get half decent ranged. The F-15 has never gone past Mach 1.6 in combat, its too much drag with all of its weapons and a total waist of fuel.

OK... So why were you claiming:

Yeah and even when in full after burner going supersonic the F-35 is faster than any other 3rd, 4th or 4.5th generation fighter in terms of supersonic speed.

That seems totally contradictory to what you have just posted...

 

[rjmaz1]

The F-15's airspeed indicator only goes up to Mach 1.6

Marco i think what F-15 Eagle is trying to say is that the top speeds of the 3rd, 4th generation fighters are done without missiles or external fuel tanks, in combat configuration they are no faster than the F-35.

As the F-35 has a large internal fuel advantage over the 3rd and 4th generation fighters then for an apple to apple comparison the older aircraft should carry external tanks as they are required to reach the range of the F-35. The same applies for weapons.

The F-16 or Saab Gripen would require near maximum external fuel load to reach the range of the F-35 on internal fuel. In addition to a couple missiles it would be highly unlikely that the either aircraft could hit Mach 1.6 let alone their top speeds of Mach 2.. At dry thrust levels i wouldn't be surprised if the F-35 could fly 50% faster.

The Eurofighter, Rafale and F-15 would need some small amount of external fuel to reach the range of the F-35. In doing so their cruising speeds would also come down to the same ballpark as the F-35.

However it doesn't matter if the aircraft can cruise at Mach 1.1, 1.3 or Mach 1.5. On a combat sortie these aircraft will still transit at Mach 0.8 as the effeciency at this speed gives a huge range increase. By travelling only slightly quicker the range of the aircraft is slashed. Its simply not worth it.

All these comparisons are done with the F-35 with internal fuel only. Punch in the numbers with the F-35 carrying maximum external fuel and its range will be huge. Even with the max external fuel it may still be able to transit the same speed as other fighters as Mach 0.8 isn't that hard to reach.