This is a discussion on Can Israel develop its own stealth fighter jet within the Air Force & Aviation forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; Originally Posted by swerve
Why are you so obsessed with ballistic missile submarines? You've stopped addressing the arguments, but you ...
Why are you so obsessed with ballistic missile submarines? You've stopped addressing the arguments, but you keep on about "SSBNs, SSBNs, SSBNs" as if it's a mantra.
SLBMs are not the only weapon, & they take a long time to develop & deploy, especially if you've never even built a little coastal submarine.
If Iran's nuclear programme is advanced enough to be an imminent threat for Israel, SLBMs are not the answer. MAD requires having missiles, not conceptual designs of what you might build in some future decade.
Because the US has them to protect its own nuclear deterrence, which is why Israel should have the same. If a HUGE country like the US feels that accurate Soviet missiles might have been able to destroy a large part of its own deterrent in a first strike and thus chose to put a large part of it under the sea, then certainly tiny Israel
has to do the same. Iran's potential threat is not yet fulfilled. Within a few more years, it may well be. Before they make actual warheads, they are going to continue to improve the accuracy of their own missile, and improve their own air and space defense capabities. In the same period, the US won't supply the subs it needs, Israel should start a submarine naval program to get those nukes protected and capable of delivering a devastating counterattack. And Iran has to know it.
Iran shows new submarines and warships, touts self-sufficiency in defense
Posted by Anup Kaphle on November 28, 2012 at 10:23 am
"Iran’s state television has posted a short video that shows what the Iranians say are “indigenously built” warship and submarines. The two Ghadir class submarines, which can fire missiles and torpedoes at the same time, and the Sina-7 warship were launched at Bandar Abbas, near the Strait of Hormuz.
Iranian submarines unveiled near Strait of Hormuz on Wednesday. (Screenshot from Press TV)
In the video, Iranian navy commander Habibollah Sayyari also boasted of the country’s ability to build its own destroyers and submarines.
" Thanks to the Islamic Revolution, Iran has acquired the know-how to build submarines. No one believed that we would reach a point where we would build destroyers capable of carrying helicopters and missiles in the Sea of Oman and oceans … because it’s a very difficult task to build destroyers and submarines."
This has gone so ridiculously off topic that it needs to stop. Jgarbuz, it's supposed to be a thread about the potential for development of low-observable aircraft by Israel, not a platform for your personal ranting on the nuclear balance of the middle east. I don't care where you're from or what you do, either get back on topic or leave. Especially after a gem like this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by jgarbuz
And remember, it was Jewish-American Admiral Hyman Rickover that pushed for nuclear subs back in the 1950s. If Israel's physical survival is at stake, it is amazing what even a tiny country like that can accomplish. Where there is the will, there is a way.
What does Rickover's being Jewish have to do with your point that Israel (apparently) needs SSBNs? Bugger-all, that's what, so rather than add to the illogical nonsense with which you've polluted the thread, stay on topic, think before you post, and above all else start making some kind of sense. Two moderators, myself included, have already issued warnings to this effect. You won't get another one from me.
This has gone so ridiculously off topic that it needs to stop. Jgarbuz, it's supposed to be a thread about the potential for development of low-observable aircraft by Israel, not a platform for your personal ranting on the nuclear balance of the middle east. I don't care where you're from or what you do, either get back on topic or leave.<<
"The Israeli military is developing a large, classified unmanned air vehicle (UAV) with features consistent with stealthy aircraft designs, according to a knowledgable source.
The secret project involves a "fairly large" UAV in development by Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI), the maker of the non-stealthy Heron and Eitan (which is called the Heron TP for export) UAVs, the source says.
Israel has been openly involved with stealth and minimal-detection programmes. Experts familiar with Israeli industry profess little surprise in a low-observable aircraft capability.
"There have been rumours about it, and you see Israeli companies have rolled out an array of products across the spectrum," says a former US government official. "You would expect that stealth is something they'd be interested in, particularly in light of the threats they face."
Israel, a small nation surrounded by largely hostile neighbors, has long placed an emphasis on operating in denied areas with various means. Recent airstrikes thought to involve Israel include a 2007 strike that destroyed a nuclear plant in Syria, and two more recent strikes on targets deep in Sudanese territory. Operations over denied airspace, particularly airspace protected by sophisticated surface-to-air networks, require both stealth and endurance.
"I know that they were working on small and medium-size variants [of stealth aircraft] for some years now," says one industry analyst, who declined to comment on the record. According to the analyst, IAI has been working on stealth technologies since the mid-1990s or earlier.
"You would think from a national security perspective, that they would be willing to put a lot of money on that project," says one current aerospace executive. "They've been pretty evolutionary with the Heron series of UAVs, I could easily see them trying to trick one out, put some [stealthy] materials on."
"Israel, long known as a leader in UAV technology, is conspicuously quiet on the subject of stealth. An Israeli stealth UAV would join a long list of unmanned projects designed to evade radar detection. The US has launched several projects including the Northrop Grumman X-47 and the Lockheed Martin RQ-170 Sentinel. Meanwhile, acknowledged European projects include the BAE Systems Taranis and Dassault Neuron. Similar projects have also surfaced in Russia and India."
"It would be a logical next step for either an IAI or an Elbit," says an industry analyst. "If you look at the evolution of the species, you've got [BAE] Tyrannis, you've got [Boeing] Phantom Ray, [Northrop Grumman] X-47, you even have the [MiG] Scat system. I would not dismiss it out of hand."
IAI did not immediately respond to questions."
Last edited by gf0012-aust; January 7th, 2013 at 06:58 PM.
Reason: layout fix
This has gone so ridiculously off topic that it needs to stop. Jgarbuz, it's supposed to be a thread about the potential for development of low-observable aircraft by Israel, not a platform for your personal ranting on the nuclear balance of the middle east. I don't care where you're from or what you do, either get back on topic or leave. Especially after a gem like this:
What does Rickover's being Jewish have to do with your point that Israel (apparently) needs SSBNs? Bugger-all, that's what, so rather than add to the illogical nonsense with which you've polluted the thread, stay on topic, think before you post, and above all else start making some kind of sense. Two moderators, myself included, have already issued warnings to this effect. You won't get another one from me.
I think Israel has a right to do whatever it needs to defend itself, including developing SSBNs. Whether or not they can practically do so is a good question but not a good reason to pressure to end further discussion. If this is so outrageously off topic in the current thread, why not offer to move it into a more appropriate one instead? It has not been stated by the mods that this subject is completely inappropriate for discussion, only that the topic of discussion is in the realm of fantasy. So you are entitled to your opinion. Why not direct jgarbuz to argue his point in a more appropriate thread?
I think Israel has a right to do whatever it needs to defend itself, including developing SSBNs. Whether or not they can practically do so is a good question but not a good reason to pressure to end further discussion. If this is so outrageously off topic in the current thread, why not offer to move it into a more appropriate one instead? It has not been stated by the mods that this subject is completely inappropriate for discussion, only that the topic of discussion is in the realm of fantasy. So you are entitled to your opinion. Why not direct jgarbuz to argue his point in a more appropriate thread?
I'm not interested in debating how moderation is undertaken on this site, nor am I interested in your suggestions as to what I should or shouldn't do. And for the record, if a mod suggests a topic is pure fantasy, then for the purposes of quality control on the site (which we do care about) it is essentially inappropriate (or at least pointless) for discussion. We're willing to be shown otherwise and we do confer as a group when such things come up, but this has not been deemed, by any of us, to be one of those situations.
I think Israel has a right to do whatever it needs to defend itself, including developing SSBNs. Whether or not they can practically do so is a good question but not a good reason to pressure to end further discussion. If this is so outrageously off topic in the current thread, why not offer to move it into a more appropriate one instead? It has not been stated by the mods that this subject is completely inappropriate for discussion, only that the topic of discussion is in the realm of fantasy. So you are entitled to your opinion. Why not direct jgarbuz to argue his point in a more appropriate thread?
Several things to keep in mind. This thread IS on the Mod team's collective radar, and as a group we aren't happy with the quality of some recent posts. For one thing, they have been Off Topic. For another, they have been illogical and fanciful in their content. Such posts and their poor quality, detract from Defence Talk and as such the Mod team is not particularly interested in harboring such discussion. There is a demand that DT discussion needs to be grounded in a degree of reality. So far, all the discussion on SSBN's for Israel have not been grounded in reality, even after the warning that post quality in this thread needs to be stepped up.
-Preceptor
Well, back on stealth aircraft I guess...there's a large gulf between a UAV and a manned platform, particularly a fighter.
Best look at Swedish experience in building their own aircraft, which has usually involved integrating large chunks of existing hardware into a bespoke design. The engine is a variant of a US design, a lot of the avionics and sensors are sourced elsewhere and the Swedes have forty years of fast jet experience.
Or, have a look at the French experience with Rafale, which has a much larger domestic quotient - and cost a *lot*.
Technically, yes, on a "national survival, must occur at all costs" basis, Israel could , given enough time and money, built a jet fighter with some RCS reduction. Practically? No.
What Israel might be able to do is build a long-range stealthy subsonic UAV for strike, as an alternative to submarine-launched missiles & manned aircraft. Using imported (or licence-built) jet engines, & building on existing Israeli expertise in UAV control systems, it should be both within Israel's capabilities in aerodynamics & aero structures, & cheaper than a fighter - though not cheap, by any means. I expect Israel is already working on signature management.
Stobiewan: the Swedes have 65 years experience of building jet fighters, & over 55 years of building fast (if by that you mean supersonic) jets. The Saab 21R flew in 1947, & the Saab 35 in 1955.
What Israel might be able to do is build a long-range stealthy subsonic UAV for strike, as an alternative to submarine-launched missiles & manned aircraft. Using imported (or licence-built) jet engines, & building on existing Israeli expertise in UAV control systems, it should be both within Israel's capabilities in aerodynamics & aero structures, & cheaper than a fighter - though not cheap, by any means. I expect Israel is already working on signature management.
Stobiewan: the Swedes have 65 years experience of building jet fighters, & over 55 years of building fast (if by that you mean supersonic) jets. The Saab 21R flew in 1947, & the Saab 35 in 1955.
1947 ? Blimey, I was not aware of that fact
Kudos to the Swedes then - quietly getting it done. I've always liked and admired the lines of the Draken and Viggen as well - there's a Draken at Duxford and the thing looks like if it hit the side of a mountain, it'd just keep flying out the other side.
SAAB just happened to have a wartime prop-driven fighter in pusher configuration, the J21. The configuration made it relatively easy to turn into a jet. It wasn't a very good propellor fighter, & it didn't make a good jet fighter (in fact, all those built were completed as attack aircraft & the originally planned number was cut in half), but it gave SAAB & Volvo engineers useful experience, & was strictly a short-term expedient until the excellent J29 Tunnan was ready - a swept-wing designed from scratch jet fighter with a licence-built De Havilland Ghost engine, first flight 1st September 1948, in service 1950. SAAB got hold of some wartime German engineering data on swept wings & used it very well indeed.
