Anglo-US defence deals in jeopardy (Britain May Consider buying French Fighters)

[SABRE]

seems like Britaib is losing losing patience with the JSF program. About couple of years back BBC had reported British concerns over the JSF program. According to that report various British armed forces officials from Airforce & Navy believe that US & Lockheed-Martin are paying more attention to F-22 Raptor program than JSF. Some of them went ahead saying that if the project starts to take too long, Britian may be forced to consider alternatives.

(Note: the news is from Fab2006)

Anglo-US defence deals in jeopardy


BRITAIN may consider buying up to 150 French fighter jets for two new-generation aircraft carriers scheduled to go into service with the Royal Navy in 2013.

If the Government went ahead with the £5bn deal, it would mean cancelling existing US contracts to supply aircraft for the carriers and could cause a major crisis in Anglo-American relations.

The unexpected verbal offer to buy the Rafale Marine jets came on January 24 when Defence Secretary John Reid met his opposite number, Michele Alliot-Marie, for crucial talks in London.

It followed well publicised difficulties between Britain and America on the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) project, dogged by a row over sharing technology.

It is understood that Reid said he would consider the French offer. Even agreeing to give the proposal serious consideration could be seen as a major snub to the Americans, whose relations with the French on defence are strained.

The French offer follows America's continued refusal to agree to the transfer of advanced technology on the JSF - the jet being built in the US by Lockheed Martin with co-operation from Britain.

The Ministry of Defence has already paid the Americans £2bn for development. BAE Systems, Britain's leading defence contractor, which is a vital partner in the project, was hoping for about £14bn in development and production contracts.

The MoD declined to give details of the French offer, but defence sources in Paris confirmed that a lengthy conversation took place.

The American refusal to share technology means that if one of the JSFs needed repairs, the work would have to be carried out in America.

It would also mean British forces would not have the right codes to arm the planes if they wanted to use them for missions not approved by the Pentagon.

There is growing anger at the Americans' obduracy over technology transfer. Britain has now made it clear that without 'achieving the appropriate level of sovereignty' over the JSF, it will consider cancelling the contract.

Washington's reluctance to give up the technology to its closest military ally is fuelled by fears that Britain might allow foreign firms access to America's most precious commercial and defence secrets.

Faced by the the refusal to share technology, Lord Grayson, Minister for Defence Procurement, said: 'There has to be a Plan B. We need to make sure we have done the work needed to ensure we have an option.'

The MoD still hopes that the Americans will change their minds. Meanwhile, it is looking at its options. Giving consideration to the French offer could strengthen the MoD's negotiating hand with Washington.

The 60,000-tonne carriers planned for the Royal Navy are designed to have powerful catapults built into the deck. This means they are not restricted to the vertical take-off version of the JSF. They could fire conventional take-off JSFs as well as modified Typhoon Eurofighters.

The Rafale Marine is already in service and is designed for use on France's new carrier - identical to those being built for the Royal Navy.

The decision by Paris to buy the design of the UK carriers for their own second large carrier makes the French option more palatable.

The French jets cost about £35 million each and would be cheaper, if probably unpopular, with the forces.

Gerald Howarth, Conservative defence spokesman, said: 'This shows the danger of the American refusal to give us the technology. They could drive us into the arms of the French.'

Source: thisismoney.co.uk
Link: http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/news/article.html?in_article_id=407244&in_page_id=2

Seems like Britian is either very serious or sending a signal across the ocean.

 

[Big-E]

Where have you been??? Tony Blair has already gotten all the tech transfers he requested. That's what you get for reading four month old news.

 

[Big-E]

......

 

[SABRE]

Well I have been a bit Preoccupied in my work, which is more importent.
But anyways, do u have the link to the news confirming ToT of JSF to Britian?

 

[410Cougar]

Here's a piece that I found about the Electric Warfare System from the BAE Website. The official site for the JSF project can be found at http://www.jsf.mil/index.htm and they update the releases as they become available.

BAE SYSTEMS DELIVERS INITIAL F-35 JSF ELECTRONIC WARFARE SYSTEM
31 May 2006

NASHUA, N.H. – BAE Systems has delivered the first electronic warfare system for the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter program to Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company, Fort Worth, Texas.

The EW suite, provided by BAE Systems in Nashua, N.H., and delivered April 28, will serve as one of the key sensor systems for F-35 pilots, enhancing their situational awareness and self-protection through next generation threat identification, monitoring, analysis and countermeasures.

The two major assemblies that were delivered make up the heart of the fighter’s EW system, and will be used by Lockheed Martin in integration tests at its Fort Worth facility. “The entire system including apertures weighs less than 190 pounds, making it one of the lightest, most capable digital receiver-based systems in the world,” said Dan Gobel, vice president of BAE Systems’ Joint Strike Fighter EW program.

Gobel said integrating the EW hardware and software involved more than 10,000 discrete steps and noted, “Every major milestone has been met and the system tested extremely well, both in the lab and in flight test.”

The first 20 flight-ready versions of the JSF EW system are currently in the build-up and test cycles at BAE Systems. The first of these systems are scheduled to be delivered to Lockheed Martin in early 2007.

The delivered system, composed of electronic support measures and countermeasures hardware, is one of four already built by BAE Systems. Future blocks of software will follow in a “spiral development” fashion, providing increased capability as the Joint Strike Fighter progresses toward initial operational capability.

BAE Systems is responsible for the F-35’s electronic warfare systems suite and also is providing advanced affordable low-observable apertures and advanced countermeasure systems. BAE Systems facilities in the United States and United Kingdom are responsible for key areas of the airframe, vehicle and weapons systems, including the fuel system, crew escape, and life support system. The aft fuselage and empennage (tails and fins) for each F-35 are being designed, engineered and built at BAE Systems' Samlesbury, U.K. site.

The company also has significant work share in autonomic logistics, primarily on the support system side, and is involved in the Integrated Test Force, including the systems flight test and mission systems. Additionally, the company is supplying the vehicle management computer, the communication, navigation and identification modules, the active inceptor system and the EOTS laser subsystem.

About BAE SYSTEMS
BAE Systems is the premier trans-Atlantic defense and aerospace company, delivering a full range of products and services for air, land, and naval forces, as well as advanced electronics, information technology solutions, and customer support services. BAE Systems, with more than 100,000 employees worldwide, had 2005 sales that exceeded $28 billion.

For further information, please contact:
Marianne Murphy
BAE Systems
Tel: 603-885-2812 Cell: 603-315-1536
[email protected]

DeAnn Baxter
BAE Systems
Tel: 703-907-8257 Cell: 703-967-3854
[email protected]

www.na.baesystems.com

http://www.baesystems.com/newsroom/2006/may/310506news1.htm

 

[Miles]

It is true that this is old news, but it still has not been resolved. I believe that Bush has recently said that he is in favour of the tech transfer, but the problem remains with congress as currently it is against US law for this to happen. Can't find a reference as it is late in this timezone and I am off to bed. Also, the timeframe for JSF seems to slip, which would not be a problem with Rafale.

It is possible that the UK does pull out of buying JSF, but even if it happened we would still be involved in building it for the US and others.

If it is cancelled then Rafale would make sense. The French left Eurofighter because no one else wanted it marinised (Doh!) To convert it now would cost a fortune, and be risky. Therefore we should just buy Rafale. But, if the UK were not to buy JSF then the government would probably pay a fortune to convert Eurofighter... Why? Well, for political reasons we have ordered twice as many as Britain needs. Therefore the government will be embarressed by over 100 Eurofighters being mothballed as soon as they are built. If they could be converted for carrier use, then that embarresment will be solved... even if the RN ends up with an aircraft that is not as good as Rafale, and costs far, far more....

 

[adsH]

i think its something to do with the size of out sourcing to briton, we're (BAE's) already building a large part of the electronics EW and the avionics (correct me if i'm wrong). i think the issue may have arisen on the RR power plantplant.

 

[Izzy1]

BAE System's (Air Systems) Lead Workshare Elements on F-35 JSF/JCA include the rear fuselage, the main structure for both the horizontal and vertical tails and both wingtip areas on the CV variant.

Your correct in also pointing out that a very large percentage of the aircrafts EW systems are the responsibility of BAE Systems (North America). A lot of the logistic and system management packages are also being developed by the same division. BAE also has responsbility for the fuel system for the entire program.

In all honesty, from a personal opinion, you can see why some US manufacturers complain about work share, Northrop Grumman for instance.

 

[oldsoak]

BAe is not wholly British as in totally based in the UK. A lot of the contracts with BAe are not with the British based manufacturing end but with US companies purchased by BAe. Its a bit like saying buying a Ford means you are buying an American product when it is actually made by Ford at Dagenham, UK. A contract with BAe does not automatically mean money for the Brits.

 

[adsH]

BAe is not wholly British as in totally based in the UK. A lot of the contracts with BAe are not with the British based manufacturing end but with US companies purchased by BAe. Its a bit like saying buying a Ford means you are buying an American product when it is actually made by Ford at Dagenham, UK. A contract with BAe does not automatically mean money for the Brits.

I think some people here would be in a better position to explain who owns BAE, Primarily it is a british publicly trading company with a HQ in the UK, it trades and is listed on LSE, MOD owns a stake init they still have Overriding powers ie they can legally prevent takeovers. MOD is still the biggest Customer (I believe) I'd say its much like any-other american firm doing business in the UK or Europe! It just happens to have a different operating environment probably less cohesive when compared to other companies like GE, Motorola, IBM, Cisco, SUN Microsystems, Lockheed, Boeing.

I'd imagine any other Sub Trading Brand would be washed out ie re-branded when the Corporate Management decides the time is right to Shed off some Jobs and Integrate the capabilities and IPs.

 

[oldsoak]

This might be of interest - though off topic -

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles/2006/06/06/Navigation/177/207019/Not+so+British+BAE.html

 

[Big-E]

This might be of interest - though off topic -

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles/2006/06/06/Navigation/177/207019/Not+so+British+BAE.html

BAE thinking about ditching the poms and going American... we could definetly use all those high-tech jobs, there welcome anytime.

 

[adsH]

BAE thinking about ditching the poms and going American... we could definetly use all those high-tech jobs, there welcome anytime.

Don't think MOD will let all that capability move out of the UK! YOu can take the firm away you can't take UK MOD owned IP and research. You can't take british Capability away, once BAE moves out others will emerge they'll hire the personnel left over by BAe, MOD will provide traditional grants Research and Political support to sell British Equipment to our customers.

Then who cares baout BAE, BAE won't have all the British MOD IP the personnel that makes the Firm what it is. remember People makes firms.

Then you might aswell take the Name tag BAE and keep it in the US.

Whats British stays british mate !! regardless of the tag that represents it!

 

[oldsoak]

Don't think MOD will let all that capability move out of the UK! YOu can take the firm away you can't take UK MOD owned IP and research. You can't take british Capability away, once BAE moves out others will emerge they'll hire the personnel left over by BAe, MOD will provide traditional grants Research and Political support to sell British Equipment to our customers.

Then who cares baout BAE, BAE won't have all the British MOD IP the personnel that makes the Firm what it is. remember People makes firms.

Then you might aswell take the Name tag BAE and keep it in the US.

Whats British stays british mate !! regardless of the tag that represents it!

Bring back Avro, I say.
- and English Electric and Hawker Siddley....:
Well, BAe does seem to think its future lies not in Britain or Europe but in the US. They have the bigger budgets and if you want to get deeply involved, its easier if you are of Sam. Not much point in being the MOD's no1 supplier if the UK budgets are nowt.

 

[Big-E]

Don't think MOD will let all that capability move out of the UK! YOu can take the firm away you can't take UK MOD owned IP and research. You can't take british Capability away, once BAE moves out others will emerge they'll hire the personnel left over by BAe, MOD will provide traditional grants Research and Political support to sell British Equipment to our customers.

Then who cares baout BAE, BAE won't have all the British MOD IP the personnel that makes the Firm what it is. remember People makes firms.

Then you might aswell take the Name tag BAE and keep it in the US.

Whats British stays british mate !! regardless of the tag that represents it!

I wouldn't be suprised if they did move they would offer incentives to those that make BAE as innovative as it is to come to America. There are plenty of skilled laborers here to fill in the rest of the gaps.

If the UK doesn't stop cutting her defense budget the personnel will find themselves out of work.

 

[Whiskyjack]

I wouldn't be suprised if they did move they would offer incentives to those that make BAE as innovative as it is to come to America. There are plenty of skilled laborers here to fill in the rest of the gaps.

If the UK doesn't stop cutting her defense budget the personnel will find themselves out of work.

Not my area of expertise, but my impression is that BAE, is up there on the theory and runs behind in the practical due to funding.

Something like the AESA radar for the Typhoon, could be flying now if the funding was there.

Just to be clear I am not starting a platform discussion here I just want to know if my impression is correct.

 

[hot222]

Last years seems that US companies are almost "stalled" of new ideas/plans. I don't know if that is due funds, or funds that must be cutted down to support the all around the globle wars. BAE systems seems to be at the time the strongest company in the sector of mission avionics/equipement. That's why is working in JSF project. Not because UK want to buy JSFs (my opinion). UK is in Eurofighter project and usually uses its own fighters or European-made (Tornado).

Also it's seem right just to buy Rafales for Royal Navy, since they are ready to be purchased. No money to put for developement. No time to wait unitl JSF be ready. Since it is one of the stronger members of EU, that will work in UK's advance in terms of economy/political.

 

[Big-E]

Also it's seem right just to buy Rafales for Royal Navy, since they are ready to be purchased. No money to put for developement. No time to wait unitl JSF be ready. Since it is one of the stronger members of EU, that will work in UK's advance in terms of economy/political.

Rafales for the RN... What do you expect to put them on? :lol3

Considering their future carrier is decades from coming to reality don't jump the gun. JSF will be ready long before her new carriers are.

 

[hot222]

Rafales for the RN... What do you expect to put them on?

Considering their future carrier is decades from coming to reality don't jump the gun. JSF will be ready long before her new carriers are.

Decades?

Anglo-US defence deals in jeopardy


BRITAIN may consider buying up to 150 French fighter jets for two new-generation aircraft carriers scheduled to go into service with the Royal Navy in 2013.

How many decades are until 2013?:laugh

 

[SABRE]

Well only 7 yrs to go, but thats considered as the "Beginning of the end of the decade"


To me the whole Rafale thing is just a political signal towards USA by UK. Otherwise UK can lease F-18E/F from US till the JSF is ready to be inducted. By showing interest in French aircraft, UK is probably convaying message to US that it can completely move away from American market if the slow pace continues & no complete ToT takes place.